The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test

By Merlin Missy
Published 09/14/2007
Dr. Merlin's Soapbox
Rating: Unrated

Merlin Missy

Merlin Missy has been active in online fandom since 1994. She likes fanfics with plots and happy endings.

Mary, Mary, Quite Contrary

(Note: This essay was originally posted in 1997 and has been revised on several occasions since. For those not in the know, Gargoyles was a Disney series that aired from 1994 - 1997, which served as a dead-dog party to the Star Trek: The Next Generation cast. The show is best described as the mutant bastard offspring of Batman: The Animated Series and The Gummi Bears.)

Since its publication, I've received a bit of commentary on "Dr. Merlin's Guide," and fortunately for my ego, it's been positive feedback. However, there has been some concern about the section on Mary Sue-ism; specifically, many authors have talked to me and my associates about characters of their own, worried that said characters will be granted the dreaded appellation. First of all, not every original character is a Mary Sue. Most original characters are not, and for this, we may all be glad. On the other hand, Gargoyles fandom is filled with them, and only a few realize it.

This test has been designed to help an aspiring author determine whether his or her character is a Mary Sue, or is simply another addition to the megaverse that is fanfiction. Scoring is simple -- for every question answered "Yes," (even if it's "technically yes, but," still count a yes) add the number of points in brackets to your score. Be honest; you're not helping yourself by saying "But it doesn't really count because ... " and thus not counting something. If your character really is a Mary Sue, and you say he/she isn't because you can talk yourself into enough "No" answers, the character is still a Mary Sue and people will still flame you. The higher your score, the more likely it is the character is a problem, or worse, is a retread of a thousand characters exactly like him/her/it.

Note for those who are going to come after me with pitchforks: yes, many of the following traits were drawn from "Gargoyles" and "Star Trek" fanfic. Just as many, though, have been drawn from my own stories, characters who saw the light of day only in my mind and were mercifully executed before they made their way into published stories. I know whereof I write. Consider this my way of trying to help.

Funniest damn name I've heard yet: Billy Bob Sue, by Chrissy Synth

Section 1 - The Name Game

Is the character named after you? (This can be your first name, middle name, or the name you go by in chat or irc.) If so, stop now. Put your pencil (mouse?) down and turn in your test.[10]
DO NOT NAME YOUR CHARACTER AFTER YOURSELF.
DO NOT NAME YOURSELF AFTER YOUR CHARACTER.
I DON'T CARE WHAT YOUR EXCEPTION IS.

Is the character's name an unusual spelling of a more common name or word?[1]

Is the character's name unusual in another way?

A female with a male-sounding name?[1]
A name the character chose for him or herself, because s/he "didn't want to forget"?[1]
A noun or adjective not normally used for a name (especially for human characters)[1]?
(Touchy with gargoyle characters, but use your discretion. Would any self-respecting gargoyle really want to go through life with this name?)

Does the character have a really cool name that you wish you had?[1]

Is the character's name in the title of the story or is the title otherwise a description of the character? (i.e. "The Girl Who Could Fly")[5]

Is the character named Hunter?[1]
(If the character's last name is Canmore, ignore this question.)

Is the character a gargoyle originally from Wyvern circa 994 who had a name back then?[3]

Is the character one of Oberon's Children whose name you made up because you liked the sound of it?[2]
(Every fay we've met has been from a legend of some sort. Odds are good the rest are, too.)

Does the character have more than one name? (i.e. a nickname or a pseudonym that other characters use to refer to the character)[1]

Did you spend more than a day looking for just the right name?[1]

Have you considered naming your pet or child the character's name?[1]

Section 2 - Physical Attributes

Is the character the same gender as you?[1]

Is the character from the same racial group as you?[1]
(Note: if the character is a gargoyle, fay, or another magical/genetically altered being, answer yes to this question.)

Is the character a hybrid of two or more species?[3]
Is the character a cross-breed of any other type? (i.e. multi-racial, multi-clan)[1]

Is the character not subject to limitations normally put upon someone of this species? (Examples: A character who is any part gargoyle but does not turn to stone at dawn. A character who is in any part fay but is not vulnerable to iron. A human who is immortal.)[4]
Note: Take away four points if the character does not have the benefits of being part of the race but still has the drawbacks. (Examples: A character who is any part gargoyle who cannot fly, ever, in your entire story series. A character who is part fay who cannot work magic, ever, in your entire story series.) Take away only one point if the character eventually does get the benefit, anywhere in the story series.

Is the character a teenager or in her/his early twenties?[1]

Does the character look like s/he is a teenager or in her/his early twenties for no apparent reason[2]?

For a magical or special scientific reason[2]?

That you plan on making a plot point later?[1]

Does this sentence or similar appear anywhere in your story? "(Character's name) was the youngest person to ever become (insert job title here)."[5]

Is the character the age you would like to be?[1]

Is the character beautiful or roguishly handsome?[1]

Does one or more of the regulars find the character highly attractive?[1]

Do other regulars see him/her as a threat because of this?[1]

Does the character have an unusual eye color for no apparent reason?[3]

Will this be a plot point later?[1]

Does the character have really nice hair that you describe more than once, or on the first page?[1]

Does the character have an accent which you do not share?[1]

Does the character have a scar or a strange marking that is noticed by another character, but does not actually detract from his/her appearance?[1]

Is the character deaf, mute, or both?[1]

Is s/he no longer deaf and/or mute by the end of the story/series or else dead? (subtract 1 pt if character is alive and still deaf or mute at the end of the entire series)[3]

Is the character otherwise physically disabled? (anyone who says "She's so pretty that it's like a disability because everyone hates her or wants to have sex with her" will be summarily keelhauled)[subtract 2 pts]

Is the character no longer disabled at the end of the series, or else dead?[1]

Is the character mentally disabled? (read: at the functional level of Forrest Gump or below)[subtract 2]

Does the character have any telekinetic, telepathic, or other psychic powers despite / because of this disability?[3]

Is the character overweight? (not just "I ate too many Snackwells and now my thighs are HUGE, but honestly overweight)[subtract 2]

Is this remarked upon by another character who is not motivated by jealousy?[subtract 2]
Is the character no longer overweight by the end of the series?[4]

Section 3 - Personal Traits

Is the character the long-lost child or descendent or sibling of a regular or recurring character?[1]

Of Brooklyn and/or Demona?[2]

Of Oberon and/or Puck?[2]

Of another original character for whom you intend to write another story or even another series?[1]

Was the character adopted or did he/she otherwise live with people who were not his/her parents as a child?[1]

Is the character a member or a friend of a hitherto unknown clan of gargoyles?[1]

And is the last surviving member of that clan?[1]

Add points for each aspect seen somewhere during your character's life:

- abandoned by caregivers[1]
- born or forced into slavery[1]
- born or raised in extreme poverty[1]
- sole survivor of a calamity[2]
- physical abuse[2]
- sexual abuse by a caregiver[3]
- rape[3]
- member of a "despised" class or race[1, 2 if it is a plot point of the "I can make a contribution even thought I'm ... " variety]
- illegitimate birth[2]
- later parent of illegitimate child[1 pt each]
- any other life experience inspired by V.C. Andrews[3]

Does the character suffer from guilt about something terrible that s/he did in the past?[1]

Do the other characters eventually convince her/him that it was not his/her fault?[1]

Does the character share your religious beliefs?[1]
(Add an extra point if the character is a gargoyle or fay.)

Did the character have an unusual birth or unusual experience in early infancy? (i.e. abducted, placed in a basket and set afloat, visited by Three Weirdos, etc.)[1]

Does the character have a twin, a clone, or a sibling of the same gender?[2]

About whom you plan on writing another story later?[2]

Does the character have a very good singing voice?[2]

Or play a musical instrument amazingly well?[1]

The guitar or flute, for instance?[2]

Does the character have better taste in music than you do?[1]
(For example, does your character own cd's that you think educated people ought to own, even though you've never actually listened to the music yourself?)

Does the character do what you do for fun or profit?[1]
(This includes having the same job you have, or would like to have when you're older, or having a job that sounds like a lot of fun even though you know nothing about it. It can also mean RPing, computer programming, whatever.)

Is the character Alexander's nanny?[2]

Is the character royalty of any type?[3]

That she/he does not originally know about?[3]

Does the character make more wisecracks than Brooklyn?[1]

Because Brooklyn is your favorite character?[1]

Does everyone end up liking the character (among the regulars you like)?[1]

Section 4 - Super Powers

The Fay:

Is the character at all or part fay?[1]

But doesn't find out until the middle or end of the story, or will find out in a future story you already have planned?[2]

Is the character banished from Avalon or somehow not subject to the Gathering?[2]

Is the character allowed to go as he/she pleases from Avalon?[3]

The Rest:

Does the character, not being fay, have magical/mutant powers anyway?[2]

Does the character have telekinesis or telepathy? (Twins count.)[2]

Does the character just "know things" for no apparent reason?[2]

Can the character fly?[1]

Without the aid of wings?[2]

Can the character heal with a touch and/or thought?[1]

Do animals (especially fuzzy ones) instinctively like the character?[2]
(Subtract two points if the only animals that like the character are non-butterfly insects and crawly lizard-types.)

Section 5 - The Love Connection

Does the character fall in love with and/or have sex with Owen and/or Brooklyn and/or Demona?[2]
(If anyone writes a story with all three being "AND," send me a copy.

)

Because you want to have sex with Owen and/or Brooklyn and/or Demona?[1]

Does the character fall in love with and/or have sex with another recurring character from the show?[1]

With whom you would like to fall in love and/or have sex?[1]

Does the character fall in love with and/or have sex with another original character?[1]

With whom you would like to fall in love and/or have sex?[1]

Does the character's presence (eventually) make Goliath and Elisa (or Angela and Brooklyn or Angela and Broadway or any other pair of canon characters) realize they were meant for each other?[2]

Does the story end with the character's wedding?[2]

Is it attended by more than one fay (other than Owen and Alexander)?[2]

Section 6 - The Real World and Your Character

Would you like to be friends with the character if you met in real life?[1]

Do you think everyone who reads the story should automatically like the character and want to be friends with the character?[1]

If someone tells you he/she doesn't like your character, do you take it as a personal attack on you?[1]

Do you ever pretend, just to yourself, that you are the character, with the same strengths and abilities?[1]

If someone calls your character a Mary Sue, do you immediately assume they're jealous of you?[3]

Section 7 - The Fiendish Plot

Do you introduce the character on the first page of the story?[2]

In the first sentence?[1]

Do you tell the story from the character's point of view, all or mostly?[1]

Does the character meet the gargoyles, and after a few tense pages of plot, become friends with them?[2]

Does the character manage to develop a friendship with an otherwise villainous character, and through this friendship, reform the other character?[2]

Is the villain in question Demona?[1]
Does the villain become evil again after the character dies, but retain some last vestige of goodness from his/her interaction with the character, evidenced in one selfless action at the end of the story?[4]

Is the character transformed into a gargoyle or into a magical or genetically-altered being?[5]

Is the character happier in her/his new form?[1]

Do people like the character better in her/his new form?[1]

Do you wish you could be transformed because of the neat powers?[1]

Does the character save the day and/or another character's life?[3]

Through magical/mystical intervention?[1]

Through dying? (Turning to stone "forever" counts.)[3]

Through almost dying?[2]

Does everyone go into mourning?[1]

Does s/he get not-dead by the end of the story?[4]

Will s/he get not-dead in the sequel?[4]

Does the character go to Avalon at the end of the story?[2]
(no points if the character came from Avalon at the beginning of the story)

Does the character end up living at the clocktower/Castle Wyvern?[2]

Do you plan to write many more stories revolving around this character?[2]

Do you plan to write one or more stories featuring this character's child(ren)?[2]

Possible Points: 170 (assuming some questions obviate the rest) Preliminary testing suggests the following basic scoring scheme:

0-14 Developed character, unlikely MS.
15-20 Borderline character. Characters in this range are potential MS's, who can go either way dependent on the author's skill.
21+ Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Proceed with greatest caution.
35+ Reconsider your character and plot. Please.

Note: As of 9/4/02, I went through the test and reevaluated the original characters I used to set up the scoring in the first place. Oddly enough, the breakdown of scores stayed the same. Some MS's scored higher than before, but no non-MS's left the range.

Occasionally Asked Questions

Why are Mary Sues bad? I'm just writing to have a good time.

First, they're not always bad. Mary Sues are a fun, easy way to start writing stories about our favorite characters. What could be simpler for a story idea than pretending you're hanging out with the cool people on your favorite show or in your favorite movie? The problem is that it's overdone. So many people started out this way, and made the stories public, that the character is a walking, talking, angsting, violet-eyed cliche. She's dull to those of us who've read a lot of fanfic. (And so's he.) If you're writing for your own amusement, and not as a way of learning to write as a profession, then by all means, continue with this same style. However, if you want to improve your abilities, you're eventually going to have to learn proper character development, and not just use a sad upbringing and a fiery temper as a substitute. It's hard, and it takes time. Mary Sues are much easier to do, but as a rule, they show lazy writing. Personally, I don't have time to wade through your story if I already know everything about your Neat New Character and how s/he is going to save the day, so if I see an MS, I'm going to stop reading. That's me.

I got 74 reviews on fanfiction.net saying my character was great, so she can't be a Mary Sue. Right?

Here's a tip. Take a look at the profiles for the folks who left those reviews. Are they all 13? Are they all writing the same Neat New Character insertion stories? Are there several from the same people, who are always the same people who tell you that you're wonderful? Okay then. Everyone has their own opinion, and your fans are certainly entitled to theirs. You may even be among the writers who can start with a cliched character and make her sparkle despite it. If you are, good for you. It'd be nice if the number of reviews on ff.net actually reflected the quality of the story, it really would.

I only write canon characters, but some of the ones I'm writing fail. Can canon characters be Mary Sues?

Ah, you've met Canon Sue. The question is, are the traits that you're worried about part of the character's canon backstory, or did you add them yourself? The more MS traits you've added to the existing material, the more likely it is that someone's getting irritated with the way you handle the character. Willow Sue is apparently very common in Buffy fandom, as is Chloe Sue in Smallville fandom. Gargoyles fandom has seen more than its share of Brooklyn Sue and Angela Sue. Watch your character development. If you're worried, try telling the story from the POV of another character for a while.

But how can it be a Mary Sue? S/he's not me! I'm nothing like him/her.

Not all MS's are author insertion. Not all authors realize when they are inserting themselves. The most infamous (there are fan websites to this MS) fan-created Mary Sue in Star Trek is God Empress of the Universe Marrissa Amber Flores Picard, who was written by a well-meaning and quite nice straight male. A cliched character is still a cliched character, no matter if you think s/he isn't you in Groucho glasses. Sorry.

My friend wrote a Mary Sue. How can I tell her without hurting her feelings?

Well, you can start by gently prodding her in the direction of this or another MS Litmus test. Quite often, that's enough to wake writers up to the true nature of their characters. If you're her beta reader, use the opportunity to suggest alternate possibilities for the character, like a different age, a heathier background story, maybe even a smaller part in favor of the canon characters. And again, not all Mary Sues are bad, evil and awful, and mean that their authors are terrible folk what ought never be allowed to write again. They're a growth step in the writing process. Some are even kind of fun. Your friend's character may entertain her. If she doesn't want to fix the character, as long as she understands that doesn't make her the "Kooolst Writr Eva," she loses points for lacking originality but you shouldn't lose sleep over it. Just hope she learns a little better for next time.

Also, please repeat after me: "NOT EVERY ORIGINAL CHARACTER IS AUTOMATICALLY A MARY SUE." Now say it again. Out loud. Come on. Okay. Just because an author introduces a new character, don't immediately assume MS. Original characters are great; they add to the universe in a non-threatening way. They can even be shared if the author is okay with that. OC's are cool. OC's that draw on the author's own experience are also cool. That gives the character another aspect of realism ('cause that's what we want in all of our characters, remember?). It's only when the character takes over the story, making the canon characters act out of character, or when the so-called original character is the same damned character from the last five fanfics we just read with a different wig and colored contacts, that you start pulling out a litmus test. OC's are good. OC's who get in the way of the story are bad.

That's a lot of points for the first question. Aren't there any exceptions?

Maybe. Stop! Don't immediately assume your story is that exception, because if you had to ask, it's not. But maybe it could be. If your character really and truly is you, with all your awkwardness and shyness, and every good and bad trait you honestly know you possess, with your own neither entirely happy nor terribly tragic childhood, and with your own massive unlikelihood of meeting, much less befriending, the canon characters, then maybe. If your self-insertion character is not in any way idealized, or made more angst-ridden so that canon characters who've already led tough lives can still sympathize, then it's possible the character won't be badly cliched and flamed to a crisp by reviewers. But don't count on it.

Isn't "Mary Sue" just a label made up by fanfic writers who are jealous that other writers are more popular?

No. If that were true, the same people would also be snarking at fanfiction that did not include the dreaded MS's but was extremely popular. Instead, these are the stories that are (or should be) held up as the best of the fandom. For an example from Gargoyles fandom, let us consider the writer Christine Morgan. She's very prolific (a story almost every other week), very talented (Good plots, solid characterization, sizzling descriptions, and she does research. Oh, and she can actually spell.), and she's had a few novels professionally published. And while she's got characters that gather a few points on the test, she's also bright enough to give them well-rounded personalities and flaws. She doesn't write Mary Sues, and I think she's received exactly one letter saying her stories are bad and she should stop writing. (Now *that* sounds like jealousy to me.) I can also think of some other writers from the fandom (no names for now) who are also prolific and popular, but write extremely cliched Mary Sues. They're the ones who get the letters and the reviews telling them about it. If the people who are writing the feedback are "just jealous," why don't they flame Ms. Morgan as well?

The expression "Mary Sue" stems from Trek fandom in the early 70's. It has spread into common fan culture since, as a way of describing a character that everyone knows and nobody likes. While jealousy may be a factor in a reviewer pointing out a specific Mary Sue by a specific author, the term is valid. Personally, I wrote this test because I was cranky about reading so many stories in the Gargoyles archives with the same plots revolving around the same original characters that weren't very original. I wanted better fanfic to read, so rather than contact the specific authors, which may have worked but only one ego at a time, I created a quick test for aspiring fanfic writers to filter out some of the worst stories before I read them. Because it's all about me.

Now what?

Okay, so you've taken the test, and the character in question has failed miserably. You're stuck with a conundrum: should you write this wonderful story you have in your head? How can you do it without your character? I can't answer that for you. There are plenty of wonderful stories out there with characters who fit a high number of these traits, and still manage to be excellent fiction with interesting characters. The authors in question knew what they were doing when handling a character of this type, and pulled it off well. On the other hand, there are a disturbingly large number of stories in the same places with very painful examples of the above in them. Some of them helped inspire the test. In the end, your own common sense must be the judge.

If you see too many traits in common with your own character, can you change the character accordingly? Does the character have to be, or look, sixteen? Can you tell the exact same story with just the regulars? (You'd be amazed how often a little imagination can make this work, sometimes with even better results. Try it.) Does the character have to save the day? Must he/she be such an integral part of the story? Can you use the character instead as a means of examining the reactions of the regulars (to something other than the character's demise)? Can you give the character a major flaw? (Being unable to sing is not a major flaw. Being a gargoyle who is afraid of heights is a major flaw. Being socially inept can be a major flaw.)

I have one final piece of advice to impart. When creating a new character, no matter of what species, at his or her most basic level, the character will be human, because the author will be human. The audience will also be human, and will relate to the character on those terms. Yes, your character might have wonderful magical powers, and that is fun to fantasize about having for yourself. At the same time, your character also has fears, and wishes, and dreams, and s/he will make mistakes, sometimes painful ones. Not everything your character does can be perfect and good. Humans don't work that way. We say stupid things sometimes, and get wrapped up in ourselves, and we step on the feelings of other people whether we mean to or not, and we laugh at dumb jokes, and we smell bad when we sweat, and we drool on our pillows.

If you really want to make an original character, give him or her bad habits, and good ones, and thoughts and opinions you don't share. Have the relationship not necessarily work out, especially right from the start. (But please avoid the "You belong with XXXX, so although I love you, I must leave you that you may be with your destined love" cliche, because wow. Overdone much?) Even Goliath and Elisa didn't admit their feelings until they'd known each other for two years and a really long cruise. First and last of all, be real. The fantasy will make itself.

Spread The Word

Comments

Comment #1 (Posted by Lord Genserick) Rating: ratingfull

Well, I must say this was a very interesting read. First of all, I must say as well that I thank u for your advice, and will see, on how to fix my character.... Second, what are some of your writings, I need to see some, to confirm what I have just read, and third... Well, thanks again. You have taught me alot in these 10 minutes I spent reading this.. And I shall ponder my characters existance for the moment...

Comment #2 (Posted by Felice) Rating: ratingfull

This is cute, but it overlooks the problem with Mary Sue. There is nothing wrong with a self-insertion, Dickens, Ian Flemming, Jane Austin and a thousand other writers have done it. The problem with the work of little girls is that they are little girls, the selves they have to insert are unformed and not very interesting except to other little girls. The rest of their writing, sans Mary Sue, isn't going to be any better. So really, you're writing an essay about the symptom that has little to do with the actual disease.

Comment #3 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

wow... this is awesome. everyone alive should read this. scratch that, everyone who's ever lived at all should read this. ...you know-, you know what? amen, brotha'! preach it! yeah! my host of Borderline characters love you! uh, well... okay, so only the ones that read books. but, YEAH!

Comment #4 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This was extremely helpful. I'm very glad to have found this. Now I can edit my borderline ms' and work on my anti-sues. Thank-you very much for making this available. And in response to Felice, you are the uninformed one. I have read many stories by "little girls" and though many of them are mary-sue ridden, there are also many that have well-developed character. So mary-suism is not a disease relegated to only young girls.

Comment #5 (Posted by yamimary) Rating: ratingfull

This helped me out very much. Accoding to the test, my character, Nocturna, isn't a Mary-Sue, but this makes me want to change a few minor details abot her. I say, the character that is more important than the ones that we know and love are very annoying. Well, thank you for making this : )

Comment #6 (Posted by bounty93) Rating: ratingfull

I am an aspiring writer and this really showed me the light. Just by reading this through I have made major changes that will really make my character better.

Comment #7 (Posted by Sakuran-92) Rating: ratingfull

This helped me a lot. I'm glad that someone like you took the time to create such a long test. Now I know what to do.

Comment #8 (Posted by Gladys) Rating: ratingfull

Hey. I liked it, but my character has wings because EVERYONE in that book has wings and she's not exeptionally better than them at flying. Also, everyone in that book was kidnapped/adopted.has a tragic past. Or, ll the main characters do. Maximum Ride by James Patterson. Shouldn't that count?

Comment #9 (Posted by Will) Rating: ratingfull

Mmh...according to this test, my charachter is/risks to become a Gary Stu (he's male). I'll have to work more on his development

Comment #10 (Posted by Unidentified) Rating: ratingfull

Is being a Mary Sue good or bad? I am confused..

Comment #11 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Yeah, you tell 'em! Word.

Comment #12 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

If my person died, then hit whatever was going to take him to the afterlife with a rock, how many points would that add?

Comment #13 (Posted by Anna) Rating: ratingfull

I thought this was really great and helped me realize how much I need to work on my OC. Although, I'm still unsure on how to change them to make my story better. All of their "Mary-Sue-isms" tie into the plot in one way or another. I can't exactly take them out... I'll try to keep modifying things though.

Comment #14 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

How I can get in touch with Merlin Missy? I am writing a book for teens (on how to write fantasy) and would like to include her test in my book. Somehow I need to get her permission. Thanks!

Comment #15 (Posted by Nuthatch) Rating: ratingfull

Very amusing, and really quite well done! Also, most of your questions are helpful, but a couple do need tinkering—unless this is only for fan fictions. For example, you ask if the original character is introduced on the first page—well, yeah, she's the main character in an original universe. How many pages am I supposed to wait? Also, she has many character issues that I think should detract points—she has much less magic than her average companion, she's somewhat stuck-up, can be very aloof (and yes, that includes people who don't deserve the treatment), is bossy, etc. This is good, it's just not foolproof.

Comment #16 (Posted by Alis) Rating: ratingfull

So this is the original... Thank you for writing it, I've found it very useful in my writing. Just a word of advise for those crusading against Mary Sues. BE NICE. Don't scare the poor writers away from ever writing again. And DON'T comment in all-caps, no matter how tempting it is.

Comment #17 (Posted by Sasa) Rating: ratingfull

Good xD

Comment #18 (Posted by Reader) Rating: ratingfull

I've used these litmus tests several times, they helped me a lot in developing my character. However, I am puzzled as to why having the same gender as the character will garner points. Besides that, it is a good way to test for a Mary Sue.

Comment #19 (Posted by Akira_Cat) Rating: ratingfull

This article is a really interesting read. It has given out some valuable points too. And yes, I confess, I use the Litmus test to see if my characters are Mary-Sues/Gary-Stus. And fortunately, none of them seem to be one so far.

Comment #20 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This was very useful for me and my best friend in developing our OCs. We seriously didn't like our OCs (Mine was a Borderline and his (my friends) was a MS). Thanks to your quiz and tips, we've made better OCs. And to Nuthatch, I have several a books where the main character(s) weren't introduced 'til the 2nd or 3rd chapters. Or in other words, it isn't nessesary to introduce the main character right away. Sure, it it's uncommon, but it doesn't nessesarily hurt the story, either. Just my thoughts on that.

Comment #21 (Posted by Ariel) Rating: ratingfull

Thanks so much for this awesome article, I'm now just writing for fun (I took a CW class at school) and yeah, my character is sort of a mary-sue, or at least, was going to be a mary-sue of sorts, but with the help of this wonderful test, I now know she's only a 12 on the test and she's original enough not to be 'lazy writing' and I don't plan on having her EXACTLY like me, hell, if I found my own story and wouldn't read it, than its bad writing, but I don't think I'd dismiss this one and I'm going to see what happens with this. Thanks so much! I'm also having some other fans help me out to keep my self out of the story.

Comment #22 (Posted by C Grose) Rating: ratingfull

excellent article. it has taken me 7 years to develop my character from a MS to someone who could almost be real. and yes, i had to take out the interesting scars, magic powers and funny coloured eyes, but my character really is tons better for it, and has their flaws along with their good qualities.

Comment #23 (Posted by Marissa D) Rating: ratingfull

Wow, that was a real eye opener to some of the lame crap I used to write. Although I have to object about the thirteen year old girl part... I know plenty of kids that age who write better than expected from thier age group. This quiz really helps people see how they can improve, but I guess it also helps people see how much they HAVE improved over the years. Thankyou for writing this! :)

Comment #24 (Posted by Cat) Rating: ratingfull

Gah. One of my characters just scored a 47, and the stupid story's not even fanfic. The only questions I missed were the ones that were Gargoyles-specific. I like the story too much to scrap it, but it's not like anyone else needs to see it, I guess.

Comment #25 (Posted by Elora) Rating: ratingfull

I've taken two Mary-Sue tests just now and had problems with them because some of the traits seem too narrowly defined. Is attractiveness really a Mary-Sue-ism if the character in question is terrified of sexual relations and attempting to be celibate? Why is there no mark-off box for useful magical powers with nasty side effects? What about an empath who accidentally projects his nightmares at his own companions? I've added a variety of flaws to this character, specifically to prevent him from becoming a Mary-Sue, but the tests don't have anywhere for me to put them.

Comment #26 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Re attractiveness: if you mean by "attempting to be celibate" that the poor dear is far too attractive for others to resist despite her protests, then yes, she's a Sue. (Please see the section on keelhauling authors who do this.) Regarding the rest, like anything else, it's a matter of how you handle it. Do the other characters too readily forgive him or is it a source of conflict? Do the "nasty side effects" have actual consequences or are they there to sound good? (Ask me sometime about writers who invoke the Wiccan Rule of Three regarding magic, only to forget it two pages later when it's inconvenient for the character.) You're the one who knows these answers, not me. If you know enough to make the characters well-rounded, give them honest-to-goodness flaws and weaknesses, and write them with an eye towards telling a good story rather than self-aggrandisement via your written avatar, then you don't need a litmus test. If you don't know enough yet, then hey, free advice is free advice.

Comment #27 (Posted by Timon David Skees) Rating: ratingfull

Exellent, just a single bone to pick with you. The first sentence of 'Fellowship of the Ring' introduces Bilbo and the first sentence of "Dune" by Frank Herbert mentions Paul. Admittedly, neither of them were writing Star Trek or Gargoyles fan-fic (too bad Frank never tought his son to avoid writing Dune fan-fic).

Comment #28 (Posted by Sarchale) Rating: ratingfull

Very good list. As I was reading, I was mentally comparing the suggestions to every Sue fic I've ever read. IT WAS FRIKIN' HILARIOUS! They fit the guildlines perfectly, and I mean PERFECTLY. I don't write enough fanfiction, or long enough stories, to accually make a full-fledged Sue, but when I do (Yipee! Ryhms!) I'll be sure to check this, and slap myself if it turns out to be one. Thank you for putting this guide up.

Comment #29 (Posted by Alison) Rating: ratingfull

Hahay! A perfectly acceptable score for my girl Jess. She is pretty ordinary, after all... I will continue to develop her, though, as part of the natural process of writing. She's been with me for five years now! Thanks for this, it was extremely helpful.

Comment #30 (Posted by oj) Rating: ratingfull

i stumbled upon your article when i was surfing the net for a mary sue litmus test. you see, i was in a fanfic website and there was this author who wrote a crossver between samurai x and lord of the rings. i reviewed the story and point blank said that his kenshin was a gary stu. of course, the author got mad and would not stop emailing me. it has been almost two weeks and we still have not stopped arguing over the issue. i think i'll use this test to show him once and for all. thanks. :)

Comment #31 (Posted by Cygnet) Rating: ratingfull

I would be careful applying this litmus test to Kenshin. Kenshin, canonically, is a fantastic example of a character who meets nearly all the criteria for a Mary Sue and still works as a character. He's got a unusual appearance (red hair, violet eyes, very short), "godlike" fighting abilities, psychic abilities (senses ki), a tragic past involving being orphaned and sold as a slave and then having the slavers and other slaves murdered around him when he was eight years old, was an assassin (which I swear should be fifty extra bonus points for male sues), EVERYONE likes him, he's a goody-two-shoes in many respects, women fall all over him, he's got a "special" name in more than one respect (Kenshin=Sword Heart, also, in this time/place a commoner would not likely have a surname), those in power turn to him canonically for help since he was thirteen years old ... and he's the ONLY person who can stop the bad guys ... and I'm certainly leaving some details out. However, Kenshin works quite well even with these details. ANd that is because Watsuki is a fantastic storyteller. That said, Kenshin's very canonical details make him an awful challenge to write in a crossover. And I say this having 500K or so words of Kenshin/Highlander crossover done ... if you write Kenshin true to canon and stick him in someone else's universe, he comes off as a flaming Sue. I regularly have to dial him back a bit to avoid this effect.

Comment #32 (Posted by Balnibarbi) Rating: ratingfull

I have been studying Mary Sues for a while now, trying to write my own test and I'm glad that I found the original. It's wonderful. The only problem I have is with the gender question. It would imply that to avoid Mary Sues, one would have to only create characters of the opposite gender. But, being a woman, I feel more comfortable writing about female characters, because the mindstate is easier to get into. Otherwise, you hit it spot on. I've had this original character for five years now, and for the first four years, she was a Sue to be reckoned with. She had numerous relationships with characters such as InuYasha and Uchiha Sasuke, but this last year, I just called it quits. Now Mistral is no longer a half-breed with mysterious powers, she is no longer affiliated with other anime, and she only has one love interest, her friend of thirteen years, Azrael. It feels really good to create something truly original. Also, i've seen on some tests that you get Sue Points for drawing your character. I personally am more geared towards drawing than writing, very much so. Why is this?

Comment #33 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

The gender question is not so much a matter of incrimination as it is a matter of perspective. When dealing with an idealized character, it's much easier to distance yourself as a writer if the character is not the same gender as you are. It's not a make-or-break characteristic, which is why it's only worth a single point. One point doesn't mean anything, but if that is coupled with enough other Suelike traits, the whole pattern points to Idealized Self-Insert. Taking the same character, doing a gender flip, and then telling the exact same story won't drop your score more than that one point, but it might give you just enough distance to see what still needs work. Make sense? As for the "Drawing" question, I have no idea. I only wrote this test. Possibly in those fandoms, characters were more likely to be Sues if the authors spent hours lovingly coloring in their violet eyes. :)

Comment #34 (Posted by b10n1cl3k1n6) Rating: ratingfull

I have to say this helped me a lot. I am in the procces of writing a book, in the begining stages, and I think this will help me a great deal in the future. So far I have my own theory of creation and a history and such, but have not actually startd writing. I took the test on my main character, and he turned out to be a mary sue, but have not actually heard, seen, or read a character like him. He does have some similarities with me, however, so I'll need to improve on that. The descriptive explanation is very excellent, no doubt; however, I did find some confusing parts. After readin through a few times, though, I understood.

Comment #35 (Posted by Chelsea) Rating: ratingfull

Fantastic. I enjoy how this review doesn't completely condem Sue writers, because as we know, everyone has to start somewhere. Sues help you writers devlop other skills before character development, but then again, 18 year olds writing Sues is pushing it. Litimus tests really help me when i create a character. It helps me gauge how over the top a chatacter is before i start writing it. It helps me make amends in a way that isn't as mortifying as eventy-thousand "OMG A SUE, YOU SUCK," comments. Good job.

Comment #36 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This article was really good, great for a laugh. I once read a fanfic about a veela who was part inferi(Harry Potter), and she was the most beautiful thing alive(but inferi arn't alive?) and hermione commited suicide because she was too beautiful and Hermione couldn't take it. and the girl was emo and all the guys wanted her and Harry changed his name to Gerard Way and they got married. Supposedly it wasn't a Mary Sue... Anyway, a really well done test, I congratulate you.

Comment #37 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Intresting read, but maby you should make things a little clearer on the whole exeption thing, because harry potters the most obvious garry stu ive ever read (I dont read fan fics) yet is still good?

Comment #38 (Posted by minty-freshness) Rating: ratingfull

this is really useful. i got 14 points and i'm really happy that my OC, which is a girl, is not a Mary Sue but if i knew what are the Gargoyles and Fays and Brooklyn and Avalon that you're trying to say, i think that i would've gotten more than 14 which it probably in the border of the Sues. My character is good and not great singer, plays the guitar and a good cook, i can't say that she's beautiful...maybe cute or pretty enough but not beautiful. and most of the questions here are for fantasies and that's why i didn't get too much points lol. nice test but it could've been more specific, right?

Comment #39 (Posted by Keatond) Rating: ratingfull

I have to say, I am not quite pleased, i was one point away from having my character considered a "borderline character" at 15. I must say good test, but I personally feel that my character is great, not by review, not by My insertion into the story, but because i couldn't adequately give all the major details about the character. BUT i still feel that this test is good for telling you if your character should be jack-slapped back to the editor board.

Comment #40 (Posted by Fynnagin) Rating: ratingfull

This is fantastic, you give some really great points and have practically described all the mary-sues I’ve ever read about. I do have a bit of a problem though: going through the test I realized that you suggest that nearly every character from every popular book/show is a mary-sue. Many famous authors have written stories centred around character all of which would be labelled as MSs, according to your test. This piece of writing was very interesting and insightful, but I have to say I agree with everything that Cygnet and Felice have written (above). I have a few characters myself that scored pretty high on this test, and other tests, but I know that they aren’t actually mary-sues. I’ve written quite a lot, and read quite a lot, and I recognize them when I see them, lol (seriously – don’t roll your eyes…). I’m just thinking of characters like Edward Elric, Kenshin, L, nearly every character from Lord of the Rings, Naruto (practically every Naruto character,), and hundreds of other extremely successful characters from extremely successful books/shows. According to your test, they’re all horrible mary-sues. All I can conclude is that this test was intended for OCs created for fanfiction, and not original characters created for original stories. But all in all, good job, ;)

Comment #41 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Sorry, thought the whole "fanfiction" thing was pretty self-evident. I have issues with people modifying the test for original fiction, although I do think the list o' traits is useful to look at other fiction. For example, you mentioned LotR, but the truth is, the cast passes the test. The overblown set of characteristics that indicates a Sue is spread over many characters. Each character is special, but not So Sooper Speshul that s/he eclipses the rest. Aragorn is the long-lost heir, but Frodo is the Ringbearer. Legolas gets the eternal youth and psychic powers, Eowyn gets the rough childhood and self-sacrifice, and so on. Plus, the qualities get balanced by pride, self-doubt, and weakness, making them all better characters. Again, this test is not designed to look at characters from original fiction (though if you've written Gargoyles fanfiction, it's ready!) but you could do worse than to take this list or a similar one and see just how well your favorite books and shows balance traits among their characters.

Comment #42 (Posted by Murphy) Rating: ratingfull

My OC isn't human. how do I give 'human' flaws to my character to make it seem more...?

Comment #43 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Is your character being written by a human? Then your character is human. You may be choosing particular qualities and dismissing others in order to make him/her seem more alien, but if the character is central enough to your story that you're asking, and s/he has scored high enough on the test that you're worried, then you already know that.

Comment #44 (Posted by Blopes) Rating: ratingfull

very nice test, i saw the new version (the less gargoyels centric one, that does the adding for you.) harry potter is an irredemable-sue. lol, i knew it!

Comment #45 (Posted by Ren) Rating: ratingfull

These tests are kind of hard to use. It's like you can't be an original character unless they are fat or retarded or like really normal like us or that they are human, so it's very controversial on my part. o.O

Comment #46 (Posted by ichigo lunette) Rating: ratingfull

Hmm, not bad, but I'd rather the tests that does the adding for you. And, it allows you to like, press the button instead of having you memorize it.

Comment #47 (Posted by Tiana) Rating: ratingfull

Though I fully appreciate the litmus tests for writers, and even for myself when I was trying very hard to learn to be a better writer, there's one thing that makes me attempt to shoot my computer every time I look at most of them. "If your character is named after you/you after them, STOP WRITING" Okay, fine, I'll stop writing forever, unknown person on the internet. But before you kill my career as a journalist and writer that's actually making me money, let me explain something: Once upon a time, my first character was named after me, IRL me. Eventually I realized she was a stupid self-insertation and that I was making her embody everything I wanted to do and be, and that I was overly torturing her because of my moods. So I changed her name. At this point, I was starting to get into online roleplaying. I took characters out of stories I was writing to roleplay, and joined these forums, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, with the name of my character so that people weren't going "I go up to theshinyunicorn and say hi", but rather "I go up to Mary and say hi". As I got rather active on the internet and roleplaying, and my friends and I were all on similar sites, to not have to make a huge list of screennames, I used my frequent roleplaying character's name as my screenname. Everywhere. Because that way it wasn't "okay, you're on this site and ElfLove there and Greentree on that site and Willow202 and MrsSkywalker there and WorldofDarkness there and Josephine there and Margerita there and Saberz there..." Nope. I was Tiana. And they were their screennames that were the same everywhere. But I'd taken this original character from one of my stories and continued to write about her, even though she's really a mentally instable human chalk-full of personality flaws and realism who can't sing and doesn't have pet animals chasing her around, lured in by the gorgeous glimmering golden eyes and rainbow hair of the supernatural ultimate uber martial arts... Whatever, my point is, the fact that my one of my character's names is also my screenname almost everywhere is not what defines her as a Sue. It doesn't even make her a self-insertation. Force, I hope I'm NEVER like her. o_O And I use other character names too. It's because I'm a ROLEPLAYER. There's an exception for everything, so don't try pretend that there's not. Of course, I'm speaking from an original fiction perspective. As a fanfic reader and writer, I've found almost every single person who names their character after themself creates a horrible, hackneyed self insertation that makes me want to gouge my eyes out... Even myself. I'm tempted, so very tempted, to write a self-insertation story and make it good. Because I could, I think. I'm not bragging, I'm just speaking from the perspective of someone who's spent years studying character development and plot. Aaand these tests. XP Ah well, one fanfic on my plate is good enough. I remember once upon a time when my characters scored HIGH on these tests. o_O Well, dang. Nonetheless, tests like these did help me out quite a bit when starting, as a 14 year old writer who no one ever critiqued. I learned sooo very much and changed and improved so much. And it's paid off. I'm getting paid to write now. :)

Comment #48 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

>>>As a fanfic reader and writer, I've found almost every single person who names their character after themself creates a horrible, hackneyed self insertation that makes me want to gouge my eyes out... <<< So what you're saying is that when you apply the fanfiction test to fanfiction, it works. And when you apply the fanfiction test to something that isn't fanfiction, it doesn't. Huh. Fancy that. I still stand by the idea that you shouldn't name your character after yourself or yourself after your character. Why? Perspective. If I as a reader send you feedback telling you that Tiana is a bad character and kind of dumb, you're going to take it personally. When you write or roleplay the character you share a name with, you're going to do so (even unconsciously) with an aim toward not making yourself look bad. That's human nature, and very few writers can ever overcome it. You need to be brutally honest with yourself, and not many people can walk around with that level of honesty and not go crazy. The bloated self-importance that translates into a Sue on the page is a psychological self-defense mechanism in the real world. Again, it's human.

Comment #49 (Posted by NubTheMadhatter) Rating: ratingfull

Very interesting read! I love the quiz. Very nicely done. Most of the OC fanfiction writers I've seen need to take it. My characters always end up on the low end of the scale. (for example, the last character I tested ended up with 10) I'm not sure whether to be happy or worried about that. Either I'm actually creating good characters or all of my characters are to much alike.

Comment #50 (Posted by Full Metal Ox) Rating: ratingfull

This point has been in every iteration of the test, and I still have yet to understand it: why do fantastic creatures such as gargoyles and fay count as being from the same racial group as the author?

Comment #51 (Posted by patrice) Rating: ratingfull

this is a great article!!!!! i barely knew what a mary-sue was until i read this article!!!!! my character would have gone up in FLAMES!!!!! lol thanks merlin missy!!!!!

Comment #52 (Posted by MadRaven) Rating: ratingfull

Hilarious and excellent for a laugh. I don't write much fanfic, but have found that this litmus test works excellently for characters out of original stories too. Happily, my main characters are Non-Sues, scoring (at least)2 to (at most) 13. Though that could be taken in a bad way (as in "I seriously need to spice up this character a bit".) Every one who reads/writes fanfic-scratch that, anyone who reads/writes at all (I'm looking at you, Stephanie Meyer and fans of the "Twilight/New Moon/whatever the hell the other books are called" series) SERIOUSLY needs to put the characters up against this test. For example, Bella and Edward from the abovesaid series are the most hopeless Mary/Gary case I have seen. Someone keelhaul Meyer.

Comment #53 (Posted by Bella) Rating: ratingfull

I really liked this, because it actually explained some questions. I've taken a couple Mary-Sue tests for one of my main characters. She ranks right at the cusp of MS, and this helped show me that if she has flaws (which she does) and good points (which she does), then she'll do fine.

Comment #54 (Posted by Sora) Rating: ratingfull

Wow, this was a great help! My OC didn't score high at all, but i will surely use this a guide for my future fanfics and own stories. You're brilliant!

Comment #55 (Posted by Ben) Rating: ratingfull

Very interesting. A character I've spent four--no, upwards of five years developing has turned out to be a borderline Sue, but every bit of him--every fear, every power, every friend, every foe--is too bound to the story itself for me to change anything at this point. I guess if I want that story to be a bestseller, I should hold off on writing it until I'm truly skilled...

Comment #56 (Posted by Riann) Rating: ratingfull

This test is pretty good, but one thing I just DON'T get is what is wrong with being an identical twin? I am an identical twin and I have no idea why being one is a Mary Sue trait,

Comment #57 (Posted by Pterodactyl) Rating: ratingfull

This has allowed me to make wiser desisions about my writing. And although I never got seriously into Gargoyles, I was 6 at the time it ended, I find that the issues with character flaws are the same in every fandom I get into. Danny Phantom (my major fandom) has issues too, though less with MSes than just bad writing. We've got ghosts, half-ghosts, and humans. the number of half ghosts is surprisingly low. The only issue we really have is the shippers, who have toned it down since the end of the series (thank god!). Sorry if this sounds like an advertisement, but I am not used to seeing chronic MSes anymore. Some of the older stuff that I can find is littered with the annoying minxes. So, Thank you for the test, for making the online lideracy world a better place to read and for helping me with my own characters.

Comment #58 (Posted by Vili) Rating: ratingfull

Very good test, it helped me a great deal although by just reading it. I applied it to Solid Snake and although I expected his cannon traits to score him as a very bright Mary Sue it helped me out with details the most. This is also a very important thing: If you have a canon character who is already great you can use what he/she already has and avoid handing even more in an attempt to make him/her more important (you can make him/her more important with what he/she already has to begin with and it makes it far more interesting to read)

Comment #59 (Posted by Death) Rating: ratingfull

This test is awesome. (I like the updated one myself, but still.) Most of my characters are borderline, it seems. There don't seem to be as many "flaw" choices, however. Therefore, making my characters borderline. And the "Do you like your character's name a lot?" one is kinda silly. Of course I like my character's name. I refuse to name my character something that I dislike. It would be harder to work with said character. ... I understand if it was something like "Do you really wish you had your character's name?" or something....

Comment #60 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

"Do you like your character's name a lot?" is not a question on this test. "Does the character have a really cool name that you wish you had?" is. Perhaps you're looking at a different test?

Comment #61 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Excellent.

Comment #62 (Posted by teh_nube-writer) Rating: ratingfull

Wow. Thanks to your test, I've been able to rule out my own character as a Mary sue. Thanks for that! Anyway, I really think you've done well with this test.

Comment #63 (Posted by Lyanvis) Rating: ratingfull

I think this test is excellent, if a little too focused on the gargoyles fandom. As you can see, I tend to use my character's name as my own, in chats and such. I do know however, the flaws of doing so and I do take precautions against making my character like me. I think that my character is fairly well rounded, but I don't particularly like her, if that makes any kind of sense. I use her alot in my fanfiction stories, but if I personally knew anyone like her, I would run like hell in the other direction. still, she scores a 137 on the newer version of the test. My lyanvis has a lot of problems in her past, and they're not completely behind her, but I don't think she's a sue. Though I dislike her, I am, at the same time, kind of proud of her. Her name is something that I really do like, though I would never name myself after her. I don't know if she's a sue. I wouldn't know if Any of my other characters are sues, either. I don't get much feedback. though nearly all my characters score high, I don't feel like they are bad characters or sue-ish, though someone did totally trash my stories on ficwad only to just use my chara's in her own stories. so in that case, does that make them sues? I wouldnt know.

Comment #64 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

It's supposed to be focused on Gargoyles fandom. It was written for Gargoyles fandom. "Her name is something that I really do like, though I would never name myself after her" should probably not be in the same comment as "I tend to use my character's name as my own, in chats and such." It's the first question (and the automatic fail) for a reason.

Comment #65 (Posted by Gott) Rating: ratingfull

Nice read. But just because your character qualifies as a Mary-Sue (male or female) according to the test doesn't mean you're going to write a bad story. In fact, many great stories include these types of character. As long as one doesn't go over-the-top, it should be okay. If a character is too blatantly "awesome", flawless (or has an extremely tragic past to excuse any possible flaws) and always has everything going their way, then most likely the story's quality will suffer from it. To sum it up, if someone who's in their late teens at the very least can read you and not puke at the cheesiness of your characters, you have a go.

Comment #66 (Posted by Gaara-Akatsuki) Rating: ratingfull

Good test, though, for some cases, it could be a bit harsh for certain situations. I can imagine an OC that passed the test with flying colors being an underpowered failure when placed in a fandom like DBZ. I don't read a lot of fanfics or doujins that have OCs in them, but I do find most Mary-Sues extremely annoying when come across them. As for writing stories, I stick with cannon characters for my doujins and save OCs for original stories. I am glad to see that the characters I've tested passed, and one that scored a 5 might benefit from being spiced up a titch. Oh! I was wondering: Would it be completely evil to deliberately create a Mary-Sue-like character (in a scifi/horror style story) for the purpose of having readers hate them; think that it's just your typical MS; then have the character killed halfway through in some horrible and embarrassing way because of their own "I'm the greatest, most powerful, best looking badass in this story" attitude; and have the majority of other characters either not care that they died or laugh their asses off? I just want to know how wrong the idea is, because I personally find the thought of of a Mary-Sue getting what's coming to it hilarious.

Comment #67 (Posted by Roleplayer) Rating: ratingfull

While I don't do fanfiction, I've been a longtime participant in various Roleplaying Games such as Dungeons & Dragons, Champions and so on. These can be regarded as a form of "co-operative storytelling". Sure, not all the questions are really applicable for RPGs - but quite a few are. They help me evaluate the characters I am playing from an outside point of view.

Comment #68 (Posted by ME) Rating: ratingfull

I've used this on every main character I've written for years, and I haven't gotten a complaint about Mary-Sueims in ages. Although, apparently, I'm a Sue... Thanks for writing this, and thanks for whoever converted it into it's original fiction form!

Comment #69 (Posted by Pterodactyl) Rating: ratingfull

I base all of my characters on the other site, which I think is a basicified (not a word) version of this for all fanfiction. Or fiction in general. But for answers as to what to do with a bad character I come here. I have a pair of characters that were human (completely) and encounter the creation of a universe. They become gods due to their viewing of the sub universe. The female has a score of 84 and the male has a score of 62. They are the main characters, and the story is about them coming to understand what happened to them and their developing relationship. I personally don't think that they are MSes as they both are as humanly flawed as I can get them without making them antisues. With exception of the list of abilities reaching for the sky, acheving it, then going to alpha centauri, because of their afliction they can manipulate the universe. Space and time. Including light, chemistry, and some other stuff. I intend to write this for NaNoWriMo this year, and would like some advice.

Comment #70 (Posted by insomnian) Rating: ratingfull

well thats a releif, i was so woried that my charictor was a mary sue [she's kinda a cross breed (that is to say, her grandmother is a cross breed and the rest is human)and has freakish eyes (though SOME people have the sme eyes)and also, my sister (whom i dont particularly like...) said she was a huge mary sue] i was reallly worried that we were too similar [sme age gender and racial group] but i guess being a bit mean and not having "stunning good looks" balances it out

Comment #71 (Posted by Death) Rating: ratingfull

The author(s) of this article are complete morons. Why don't they look into a field of more significance, rather than wasting time explaining (in SUCH detail) in something that does not exist in the real world? (outside of fanfiction) Aspiring authors should not be discouraged by these unimportant phenomenons that people create because something does not "go there way." (-yes, we all know that's the reason people snark about these things, though you can sure as hell deny it, the green monster lurks.) have the courage to do what you feel is right. Not what people (write about to) tell you what is right.

Comment #72 (Posted by Kanna-Chan) Rating: ratingfull

unfortunately,nowadays all female original characters can be labled as Mary Sues simply because they don't meet societies expectations of how women are supposed to behave.In fact,many characters from well known shows/comics can be called Mary Sues.Lum from Urusei Yatsura,Shakugan no Shana, Betty from Archie.All of these are technically Mary Sues.

Comment #73 (Posted by Shmeee!) Rating: ratingfull

This was beyooonnd helpful! I've been writing for awhile but was really worried about my characters being cliche and.. well boring. BUT. I do still enjoy some MS's other authors write. I'm definitely going to revise my story now. Thanks for all the help!

Comment #74 (Posted by Mushroom) Rating: ratingfull

god i was so scared! i was seriously worrying whether or not my character was an MS but i am glad she isn't ^^'. thanks a lot for your help!

Comment #75 (Posted by Shorty) Rating: ratingfull

This was really helpful! Okay, looks like my character is not a MS (thankfully). Hmm.. though I'm guilty of the whole hair/eye color not normally found. Would this even count in the case of what is basically a race of people with albinism?

Comment #76 (Posted by Inquisitive) Rating: ratingfull

The test is fairly amusing. (Though, as you've pointed out repeatedly, not really designed for original fiction.) The one thing that I find a little unsettling about these tests, however, (hah; two cents unwarranted and yet made available) is the fact that a number of them seem to consider a character's femininity or race noteworthy enough to count against him/her/it. For instance, if you were to take a character from one of the stories in Interpreter of Maladies, naturally the character would more than likely be of South Asian descent. Why should that, of all things, push a character over the border? (An excellent hacker who happened to be Russian, whether Siberian or Kazakh or Caucasian, would actually be more believable than Joe Schmoe from Indiana, only seventeen years old, for instance. The same goes for an African child soldier, a South American narcotics agent, a reporter in the Middle East. A lot of these people wouldn't have to be red-blooded American, and a lot of tests fail to understand that ethnicity shouldn't really be a qualifier any more than a character receiving an education or liking something more cultured than The Jerry Springer Show. To further that argument, the presumably white Liberian child soldier that is Raidenn from the MGS series is certainly more Sue-ish than an African child solder would be otherwise, in part because of the odds that Raidenn would would have been a child soldier at all given his ethnicity.) This doesn't really apply to your test. (Especially since you threw in those handy quotation marks indicating a melodramatic author's insult/injury to an entire group of people.) It's just an unnerving thing that normally you can't comment upon these sort of issues on other circulated tests. (Especially the ones where your character's ethnicity, even if it happens to be your own, even if it's original fiction, is automatically a mark against it.) What are your thoughts on this trend? Are there a lot of stories involving 'minority' characters that turn the characters into Sidney Portier or something? (If there are, I haven't run across them.) I find this sort of rubric is about as helpful as a personality test, overall, but the tests invariably bring up ethnicity (save yours, and maybe one or two others) in a way that doesn't leave room for interpretation of an author's motives. (Yours suggests in the right way that an author who fills it out is both idealizing and patronizing whatever group of people he/she happens to be writing a character within. Others tend to just lay it out there that a character who is x has about as much chance of pushing the limit as a character with 'neon viridian eyes with epicenters of pure chocolate'. Really now?)

Comment #77 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

This is a good question. This test has been modified and tweaked since its original publication in 1997. Questions have been added or removed, the scoring system was weighted, that sort of thing. One of the earlier questions involved writing characters of an ethnicity the author didn't share (based mainly on the prevalence in our fandom at the time of Japanese OCs written without the benefit of knowing anything about Japan or Japanese culture). But the wording was problematic and I pulled it because it was essay-length to explain the problem of cultural appropriation, and this wasn't that essay. (I've written one and have another in the queue.) The "same gender" and "same racial group" questions are still there for the same reason the "same name" and "do you pretend you are the character" questions, but weighted far less because while they have an impact (the closer a character is to looking like you, the closer you are to sympathizing too closely with her/him), they are significantly smaller flags than the rest.

Comment #78 (Posted by Lee) Rating: ratingfull

Some questions attack irrelevant details (Did you spend more than a day looking for just the right name?[1] Creating a good, fully developed character can take weeks. Naming could require research based on location/time period, or simply finding a suitable name) (Is the character the same gender as you?[1] Who cares? It's 50/50) (Is the character a teenager or in her/his early twenties?[1] I get your point here, youth (especially surprisingly capable/skilled/mature youth) is focussed on way too much. But really, if the story is about HS, college, or anything else where that age is appropriate/necessary then it can't be Mary-Sue-ish period. In Gargoyle/Star Trek fandom it is generally inexcusable (particularily if we're talking about a high ranking military officer)) (Does the character have a ... sibling of the same gender?[2] I get the issue with the clone/ identical twin (and even recomend having a spot for "evil identical twin/clone"), having a sibling with the same gender is not at all Mary-Sue-ish. Having one that is always shown favortism / jealous / better looking / having the same love interest is, but that's about it) Also, I've never understood the inclusion of the infamous "Would you like to be friends with this character" question on these tests. Generally, OC's will be likeable, flawed of course (better be more than a "fiery temper" or stoic coldness), but still likeable. It would be really difficult to write an entire manuscript (or fanfic) about someone you don't like. And since we usually want to become friends with people we like...

Comment #79 (Posted by Meh) Rating: ratingfull

You got a lot of good stuff, but harping on a charicter for having a tragic past?! Come on! In this day and age when everything has been done, it can be hard to come up with totally orginal ideas. Chances are if you look back far enough, your charicter or plot is going to resememble something that has already been done. But tragedy is a part of a good drama.

Comment #80 (Posted by Alex) Rating: ratingfull

Question: is this test only for fandoms? Or does does it include original fiction?

Comment #81 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Alex: This test is designed for exactly one fandom, though you can find tests that have been adapted for other fandoms. A few people have tried adapting it for original fiction. These people missed the point. Meh: Tragedy that is done for a point, that evolves the character and all the rest of the cast, that resonates through the story, this is what makes good drama. Tragedy that is scribbled down for a hasty character sketch so that the rest of the cast (in this case, the last survivors of their clan --and they suspect their entire species at least at first -- who lost that clan in a horrific slaughter, who are despised, hunted and killed by the dominant species on the planet, who've been tricked and betrayed over and over by people they trusted and loved, and that's not even getting into Demona's backstory) feels sorry for him/her? That's not drama. That's stupidity, and it is lazy writing that refuses to develop a character to show us the reasons why the clan might come to like this person with or without the Giant Angsty Past Of Doom. Worse, the writers who go the GAPOD route tend to pick one of a very few ways to show (by which I mean tell, since there's no character development involved) how tragic and tortured their character is. Hence the questions. Lee: First, notice the points distributions on those questions. They're not make-or-break questions for a reason: only when you have a bunch of those traits in combination with the others do you have a problem. The more points you collect on the "I'm a lot like this character, so this character is a lot like me, so I don't want bad things to happen to this character unless of course people feel properly bad for me, I mean my character, when they do and anyway I get the hot girl/boy/both, I mean my character does, yeah that's it" part of the test, the more you need to distance yourself from your character. This is part psych test; the more you get pissed off or try to disregard particular questions, the more you need to think about them.

Comment #82 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

One of the better tests I've seen, but I don't think it covers enough in the way of shiny vs negative personality traits. I'm talking insanity of all forms, including the thousand yard stare. Likewise, several of the examples of flaws you listed in your mini-FAQ aren't reflected in the test itself; on most (or at least, all the versions I've seen) this tends to artificially inflate a character's Sue-ness, as does any sort of combat training, even where completely appropriate. Just for laughs, I once ticked all the boxes that would apply to a generic grunt soldier, and received a result of 'Reconsider your character and plot immediately'.

Comment #83 (Posted by Demoness Drakon) Rating: ratingfull

Well, I actually enjoyed reading this, and I do agree that those Sue stories are irritating. It isn't 100% accurate since I've put my characters through some of these and they scored high, and they aren't Mary Sues at all. Hey, every test isn't perfect, but this is a good test. Thanks for writing this, it helps us authoresses on fanfiction.net a lot; especially those of us that like creating characters.

Comment #84 (Posted by Calvin B) Rating: ratingfull

"Tragedy is a part of good drama." True, but tragedy isn't a crutch for half-hearted drama. That's why all of these fanfics on the web are filled with gloomy gusses crying about their sorrowful past. I can go to a fanfic database website, open up a random fanfic, and pick out three characters per short-story who have an angsty past. This is a great article. Hopefully more people will read it and less people will make more original characters that don't have asian names despite the lack of an asian heritage, and don't actually have tragic pasts (you know, you can implement tragedy along the story). Finally, the "jealousy" argument Death posted a while back (original name there, not) falls short when you realized this simple fact. No one wants to emulate crap. No one is jealous of a lack of originality. Just because you think you're being different by making an angsty character with an asian name doesn't mean you're making a unique character.

Comment #85 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

"It isn't 100% accurate since I've put my characters through some of these and they scored high, and they aren't Mary Sues at all. " and you have a second opinion? it's hard to accurately evaluate your own writing.

Comment #86 (Posted by Zaira) Rating: ratingfull

I'm German and never got what this 'Mary Sue' thing was about, so I googled and found this. I laughed my bum off, because that are all the reasons I'm careful when reading stories with OCs, especially with HP most go on my nerves after one chapter. But then I was actually really relieved. My OC got away with eleven. And I got five because the title is a wordplay containing the word felicity (which is her name). Apart from that she is a white female like me and has a nickname - I'm not too worried about that. ; ) But I think your test is pretty cool, and it doesn't hurt for any fanfiction writer to read it before making an attempt at an OC.

Comment #87 (Posted by Tir) Rating: ratingfull

The person posting as "Death" sounds like a Sue-writer in denial. No, people do not snark your MS stories because they're jealous of your great writing. As MM said, if we were jealous, we'd be criticizing the good stories, not the Sues. And if we were jealous, we could write our own just by going down the list of MS characteristics and adding them all into our original characters!

Comment #88 (Posted by Milly Impish, 12, UK.) Rating: ratingfull

Gladys - I'd just like to say that it doesn't make your character a Mary Sue if everyone in the given world - or nearly everyone - also shares that trait. ^^ It just becomes a problem, say, if you're characters in the Harry Potter fandom and she/he is a beautiful winged elven-Veela with the powers of invisibility and wandless magic from the age of three. You see what I mean? Fantastic article once again, MM. You've inspired me to write another piece to my (yummy yaoi) fan fic! I'll be off now ... *insert evil laughter*

Comment #89 (Posted by Milly Impish, 12, UK.) Rating: ratingfull

In response to Comment #71 (Posted by Death): ... You idiot. If you feel that way, then why the heck are you reading this anyway? Absolutely ridiculous. (Sorry for the meanness guys ... somebody had to tell him/her/frog.)

Comment #90 (Posted by anonymous) Rating: ratingfull

This needs improving. You need more bad things to deduct points. Overall good, though.

Comment #91 (Posted by Fan 'O Fanfic) Rating: ratingfull

Great writing! I think this will be very useful in the future. But a quick question, what about an 'anti-Sue'? I make a point to hardly ever use OCs but when i occasionally do, i make them the very opposite of a Mary-Sue. Usually i do this for comic relief. Please, anyone send me an e-mail with their answer/opinion!

Comment #92 (Posted by Ezekiel) Rating: ratingfull

Well, time to find a new handle for myself before I make any more comics with that character in them. I feel like an idiot for not having the originality to come up with a different name. Incidentally, has anyone ever attempted to go through this test with two characters as a unit?

Comment #93 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Anon: Point deductions are rare. The only real way to take away points is by writing very very well, and no one is capable of stepping back far enough from his/her work to know if it qualifies. It can't be part of a quick test (a litmus test is a quick yes or no test, not a definitive study). Fan: Anti-Sues are as reviled in fandom as regular Sues. Any character that is based more on a set of "omg, you must like/hate my character now" traits is not going to appeal to appeal to people nearly so much as a character who is grown like a real person with whom they can identify. Ezekiel: The two character unit tends to be covered with the "twin or clone" part. Sues come in units all the time.

Comment #94 (Posted by Rose Koneko) Rating: ratingfull

This test was very well done. I know there's a very fine line between Mary-Sue and original characters, but no one seems to know where it begins anymore. I think in general, original characters should remain OUT of fanfiction. Unless you need a villain, or extra characters for casual moments exchanges, they have no place in fanfics. Even if your Sue/Stu rates low on this test, ask yourself WHY this person needs to be in the story. Now if you merely like the world that the fanfiction has set up, and would like to have a character set up within it, but will have no contact with any of the established characters... That should be moderately alright. (Ninjas, Wizards, and apparently now, Vampires. Like it? Cool. Want to have Harry Potter fall in love with you? Not cool. Keep your fantasies to yourself, and not inflict them on the rest of the world.)

Comment #95 (Posted by Noniberryjuice) Rating: ratingfull

Eh... I feel so criminal posting to an old article, but anyway. I've always held an Mary Sue as an OC that overshadows the canonical cast and basically makes them dependent on her/him... and that's it. I don't feel that having certain traits, powers and names are necessarily bad unless they're out of place for the universe they're in.

Comment #96 (Posted by Valen) Rating: ratingfull

I don't understand why naming your character after yourself is so bad... Then again, I LARP (Live action roleplaying, which is essentially acting your characters in real life) So I am technically named after ALL my characters. And even though they share my name or some version of it, they are usually NOTHING like me at all.... And just a point, is Mary Sues aren't always bad. In a world of Anti-sues, the Sue can be the contrast that an rp/fanfiction needs. Mary Sues aren't always bad, my characters have a nice round balance of some of them sitting at Anti-sues while others being up at sues. Some characters need a tragic past, others don't. I've become less concerned of being a 'Sue' and making my characters real. Some of my 'realest' characters are complete Sues, but they seem more real than some of my anti-sues... just a point. As well, it rather depends if your trying to write a sue on purpose. After all, someone who is unaware that they are doing it might be lazy writing, but people who CHOSE to write Sue is another story (haha, no pun intended) altogether.

Comment #97 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

"Does the character fall in love with and/or have sex with Owen and/or Brooklyn and/or Demona?[2] (If anyone writes a story with all three being "AND," send me a copy.)" I almost fell off my chair from laughing.

Comment #98 (Posted by Lily) Rating: ratingfull

I did a simaler test for an RP, and I based the character on myself, so as to not get confused when someone said something to me. I'm trying really hard to remember flaws, but I still got borderline-Sue. Is that Ok?

Comment #99 (Posted by Barbara) Rating: ratingfull

I'm going to assume (and you know what they say about assuming) that this was designed for fanfics exclusively, esp. Gargoyles

Comment #100 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

The character I tested got straight out Mary Sue. xD But I'm not as upset as I'd imagined I'd be. It's awesome to know what I can fix. Unfortunately, I'm not writing the story, but there's a contest in which I'm participating and now I know what to tweak in order to make the expressions and dialogue more interesting to the readers. Thanks so much! This was really helpful!

Comment #101 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I tested it on this one and another quiz and the score averages out to a Borderline Mary Sue. One test, i got über-sue and on this one i got a 14. My character is actually an assassin/ninja with the power to create and the first name Allasë along with the fact no one knows her real age and she isn't evil, but isn't good combined with the roleplay i'm in about a supernatural spy school, I thought she might be a Mary Sue. So i changed her past so it wasn't so tortured and limited her powers of creation to not being able to pull a copycat. And it WORKED. I did not get yelled at for "having a character cooler than others"

Comment #102 (Posted by Alasia Kinton) Rating: ratingfull

This was truely helpful. I was afraid that my character would be a mary sue just because she's beautiful, really looks are the only thing all that great about her. She's not different at all from the rest of her race, and I'm glad having a physically attractive character doesn't automatically make them a mary sue. Not every character has to be average looking or unattractive, which i've learned. That is as long as you don't mention it frequently to the point where it gets annoying, which I don't do.

Comment #103 (Posted by Luiza) Rating: ratingfull

This is excellent. And a very helpful tool not only to fanfiction but also to original fiction. I've got a question thou. Would this work for non canon characters in original fiction?

Comment #104 (Posted by Epljpl) Rating: ratingfull

Ok in general I think that it's a good quiz, but I took it and got a 92 for one of my charicters.... I'm 14 and working realy hard on my book. It realy hurt my confedance to see the result...

Comment #105 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This test is a good one for identifying symptoms of mary sues. I'm so glad these tests are around because a lot of writers stink at originality. Especially in fan fics. My characters got usually 5's or so

Comment #106 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

lol, I got 87 for my oc but since I never planned on posting that story (just wrote it for fun) that's okay. I already knew she'd be a mary sue. but I'm thinking of writing a fan fic that is worth posting and this test is a good help to not creating a mary sue for that one as well ;)

Comment #107 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I think this is really useful, even if people's characters aren't from Gargoyles. I put an original character of mine through the test. Unfortunately, I think it really depends on the test, sometimes, whether it's regarded as a Mary Sue. I ended up with a 7 here (Not-Sue), but a 23 (by their scale, possible Sue) from another quiz. It's flawed, but I feel like it works so well to snap writer's out of their self-instertion fantasies. So thanks. :)

Comment #108 (Posted by Crisel) Rating: ratingfull

I got a 36 for my original male character. He must be a Gary Stu, and alas, it's always been my dream to publish the book with his story. But is he still Gary if all those 'perfections' have explanations? He also has flaws such as hot temper, falling in love with the wrongest of people, suicidal tendencies, occasional selfishness, vanity, tendency to be a loner, not listening to his friend's advices when he is angry, letting emotions destroy him even though he's smart, and the tendency to always run away from his problems. Yeah, sue stories (whether original, ie TWILIGHT or fanfic) are irritating.

Comment #109 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

A very fun test. My character recieved a very high score. Was it deserving? Sure many of my characters are heavily based off myself. However superheroes are always difficult to judge in a test like this, because Superman is a Mary Sue (as is Batman) but they are still functional characters.

Comment #110 (Posted by FairlyBlue) Rating: ratingfull

I really thought this was interesting and did the test that came from this. Unfortunately, my character had 105 points... so I was really worried. I'm writing my 4th book now (and the first 2 were received well, considering the lack of advertisement it gets) so there's not much I can change. My main character is good at everything... but because she's so balanced, she doesn't excell at anything and that almost got her killed a few times. It's hard not to see the result as a 'personal attack', considering I'm writing about this character for about 8 years now. That little line: 'there are exceptions'? Numbers have more impact that a little line. But hey, I like my characters, I have a nice amount of fans so... I guess she's not THAT Mary Sue... or the people that read my story love Mary Sue's....

Comment #111 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Wow! You wrote professionally-published novels of Gargoyles fanfiction? I imagine Disney is impressed ... For the many people who apparently DO NOT GET IT, I will say this in small words: this is designed for fanfiction in one specific fandom. If you are writing any other characters in any other fandom, or original fiction, you cannot use this test. It will not be useful for you. It will not apply properly. It may give you some ideas about how not to get quite so caught up in your own character, but unless that character is a half-gargoyle, half-human, half-Oberon's Child [sic] with rainbow-colored hair and magical musical powers, who happens to be named the same thing you go by in chatrooms, then, well, sorry. Not my field. Not what this is for. It's like when someone runs real people through the test: the point, they're missing it. Put another way, there are memes out there which include questions like "What's your favorite lip gloss flavor?" and "Who was the last boy you kissed?" If you do not wear lip gloss or kiss boys, you don't tend to post the meme except maybe for the lulz. If you happen to be a 40 y.o. married straight guy and post the meme and then get upset that the results indicate you're not the most popular girl in school, the problem is not with the meme. And so on.

Comment #112 (Posted by Samantha) Rating: ratingfull

You are so right! I took one of these tests a few years ago when I was 13, and I had just started writing a story about a half-elf princess with pink hair. Yah. It was pretty bad, and I realized that. I didn't throw her away, but I recycled her. (I liked her personality, it wasn't that of a typical Mary-Sues) Now my character is a normal human who isn't royal and who actually posseses a normal hair color. I'm a little embarrased I just admitted all that but the point is, this test doesn't apply to me (I don't write fanfiction) but it was still a very interesting read.

Comment #113 (Posted by Amanda Hamlin) Rating: ratingfull

The problem with these tests is that a lot of the questions they ask are things that are NORMAL in epic fantasy such as having a magic sword, being the last heir of a great race, being raised in secret and so on. According to this test Aragorn is a Mary Sue. So is Luke Skywalker. How about Lancelot and King Arthur? There's a reason these traits are common, because they tap into the archetypes of our inner minds. If you read Joseph Campbell, he talk about a the traditional components of an epic story, the qualities that resonate with the human psyche, creating a "bigger" feeling for the reader/listener. That's exactly why Starwars and Lord of the Rings became so popular, because they tap into these archetypes and touch us on a deeper level. And a great many of Campbell's archetypes are things listed here as no nos. I'm not saying things can't be overdone sometimes, but I believe taking this test seriously would make it impossible or at least very difficult to write on a truly heroic scale.

Comment #114 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

*sigh* Is it called the "King Arthur Mary Sue Litmus Test?" Does it have questions designed for Star Wars? And I've read Jospeh Campbell, thanks. If he posted a story online where he had a hero named Joe who was introduced on the first page of his fanfic and the gargoyles all fell into line behind his strong leadership and Demona fell madly in lvoe with him and changed her evil ways because of his manly virtue, and his signing voice rivaled that of the birds and he was better at magic than Oberon, then he would also fail the test. (If he were, you know, alive and writing Gargoyles fanfiction.) There is in fact a difference between the hero's journey and "This is something I wrote in math class about this girl, she has my name and she's just like me only cooler and everyone likes her!!1" This is an attempt to help people who don't know that difference yet.

Comment #115 (Posted by sam) Rating: ratingfull

Hey. I'm a teenager and fanfiction writer, and I'm considerably disturbed by the real books that have Mary Sues in them. I expect some fanfictions to; after all, they're just having fun and if their version of fun is flat characters and teribbel seplling, then who am I to pry? But my gripe is specifically with one series which has somehow taken hold of most of the female literate population in my grade. Twilight. I read the entire series once through and vowed to never pick it up again. So many things annoy me, like plot development, but my focus today is on the characters that really, really make me vomit: Bella and Edward. Really. And I was trying to take this test for her and him, though I wasn't sure how accurate my answers might be as I'm not the writer but the critical reader. So I'm requesting your professional opinion: Are they Mary Sues?

Comment #116 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Just one question about this quiz. On the nickname section, if a character has a nickname that is based on his actual name, does it count? I'm talking about things like a Joseph who goes by Joe, or a Michael who goes by Mike, or other common derivatives for a given name. I understand why in some cases nicknames and pseudonyms (particularly pseudonyms chosen by the character) are warning signs for a Sue, but I think that common and accepted derivatives aren't really such a thing. For me, the guideline would be if someone who had read the character's full name might ask "Do you prefer to go by [nickname] or [full version of name]?" without prompting.

Comment #117 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

It's totally how it plays in the story. Using your example, a character named Joseph could say "Call me Joe" and not have an issue. A character named Joseph who has five different variations on his first or last name that he (or the writer) insists on going on about is something else. "You can call me Joseph, though I prefer close friends call me Joe or Joe-Bob, and I am Mr Green to others. I don't answer to Joey because of this tragedy in my past which I will now relate to you in flashback format." Shorter first section: if you're spending a lot of time trying to make the character's name cool, this is a sign you may be getting too in love with your own character. One sign doesn't make a Sue, it makes a warning to avoid other signs.

Comment #118 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I think this is a pretty good way to test and help fresh authors. I really like the questions and answers bit. It's highly helpful especially for someone like me who's character successfully scored a bit too much on the test.

Comment #119 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I am amused by how often the author of this article has had to explain that it was only intended for use in fanfiction, and only in one specific fandom. And that several people seem to be getting angry at the test because they think they have exceptions/extenuating circumstances it does not address. I think it is a great way of assessing a character, even one who does not fit perfectly into the intended purview of the test, and it certainly made me laugh.

Comment #120 (Posted by Alisa) Rating: ratingfull

Looks like my character isn't a Mary Sue, whoopie XD The only problem was that this article was a bit too specific, especially considering that I (as well as some others reading this, I should imagine) write original short stories rather than fan fiction. But hey, it was helpful anyway. Thanks!

Comment #121 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

A lot of those are not at all Sue-ish (not specifically, anyway). Being in the story's title? Same gender as the author? That is REALLY reaching for it.

Comment #122 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I think this is a very well-thought-out article, as long as people keep in mind what it's intentions are. Of course some cannon characters could qualify as Mary Sues (Aragorn from Lord of the Rings, for example). But a Mary Sue is more than just a person with exceptional powers or a tragic past. A true Mary Sue dominates the entire work, overshadowing every other character and shamelessly begging for pity from the reader. Those who take this test should keep this in mind.

Comment #123 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This is a very good test, and it definitely helped me decide whether my OC was a Sue, but I didn't agree with the questions about the same religious beliefs and ethnicity as the author. My OC is from India; I'm from India. She's a Hindu like me, too. I'm writing her like that because I understand that culture and can write more in-depth about it than I could for, say, a Jew. I'm not Jewish, so I can't write about a Jewish character without making mistakes about the religion. Just wanted to comment about that.

Comment #124 (Posted by me) Rating: ratingfull

thanks for this! It opened my eyes!

Comment #125 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

That reminds me of a character I made when I was 8. She was a ghost named after my middle name, always complaining and thinking of her loneliness because she was like Casper (good, perharps everyone was afraid of her)...God, It was hideous... now I certainly know she was a MS, as well as more recent OCs

Comment #126 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Harry Potter is a Mary Sue! I knew it!

Comment #127 (Posted by luna) Rating: ratingfull

It had some good questions, but some were really overdoing it. Also, according to your test, I qualify as a Mary Sue. I am pretty sure I am realistic.

Comment #128 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

#127: Wow! You're a character from a Gargoyles fanfic come to life??? I never knew they could post to the Internet.

Comment #129 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Does the prologue count for the question involving introducing your character in the first sentence/page of the story? I'm thinking about introducing the main characters on the first page or two of chapter 1, but there is going to be a prologue before that.

Comment #130 (Posted by Lee) Rating: ratingfull

Man I was screwed from the start, my story started out as a fanfiction and I gave the character a last name (they had none originally) which i also used as an internet alias (I won't put my real name online). When the story started to develop into my own I kept the last name I found for my new original character as well as keeping my alias and using it as my author name. ..... Basically my main character and "I" (my alias) share the same last name ....

Comment #131 (Posted by BRT) Rating: ratingfull

Most of this test is not helpful in determining whether or not a character is a Mary Sue. As many, many, MANY characters from original works would qualify on the test. These 'Canon Sues' as they're called are not as often reviled as a dreaded Mary Sue. And your suggestion that 'Mary Sues' aren't necessarily bad, just throws the whole thing out the damn window. A self-insert is not a Mary Sue if you have a pretty accurate assessment of self. Some of the things that give you 'points' could qualify as simple character development when done right. And for the record, I can't think of a single character I've written that would fail this test. That doesn't mean the test is good. It might be useful for some, but half the questions shouldn't exist. And there should be others in their place. And if so many people fall into the trap of using Mary Sues, (and many others like those stories) then what do you say about the amount of people who agree with your test. It should Infuriate all the Sue-ers, I would think.

Comment #132 (Posted by o.o) Rating: ratingfull

To me these tests make it sound like the only way your character ISN'T a Mary Sue is if he/she was seriously deformed, old as dirt, living deep inside some mountain, never seen the light of day, refers to him or herself in third person, hated by EVERYONE, murderously self preservant, yet self loathing at the same time, and is almost addictively obsessed with a shining trinket called "precious." A sad pathetic form of life. Hm, I wonder if even Gollum would register as a Mary Sue on these tests... *goes to try*

Comment #133 (Posted by j3r3my tr@n) Rating: ratingfull

lololololololol. i like.

Comment #134 (Posted by Someone) Rating: ratingfull

This is definitely a good test but, I think it still lacks something. (I don't even know what is it, just a feeling...) Though, I'm relieved to find out that my character is not an MS. (After all, she[referring to my character] is an idiot in many ways)

Comment #135 (Posted by Rayquaza7996) Rating: ratingfull

So, dear Ray has earned a 17. It'd be a 17 if I wasn't using the handle Rayquaza7996. Eh, oh well.

Comment #136 (Posted by Orly) Rating: ratingfull

One question: Why does a character get 3 Mary-Sue-points for being raped? In my opinion, it qualifies rather as a flaw because people who were raped or abused in the past are often seriously traumatized (no offense).

Comment #137 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

Orly: Because taken in conjunction with enough other traits, the likelihood is that the author isn't thinking in terms of trauma but of scoring points. In Sue fics, a history of sexual abuse is used in place of characterization, rather than part of it. One way of figuring out which is the case in a given story is to check the followup. This character was sexually assaulted, and thus ... s/he may suffer from PTSD, may have lingering physical injuries, may have difficulties with later relationships (or not -- every survivor is different and no one ticks off a checklist). But if the second half of that sentence is ... "you can't be MEAN to him/her," then you're likely dealing with an author who is playing the "pity me" card for his/her character rather than trying to present an accurate picture. If you're creating a character, think it through: my character was raped and therefore *insert your characterization here, including things that change over the course of your story, if appropriate*. None of these characteristics listed are a "Don't do it" (well, okay, except naming the character after yourself) but if you intentionally choose to use any (or hell, all of) them, do your ground work. How do these things affect your character and the way s/he interacts with others? How can you use the character and his/her characteristics to tell the story rather than take over the story? (Hint: If the canon characters are standing around listening in awe as your original character recites his/her life story, a rewrite may be in order.)

Comment #138 (Posted by LadyGhibli) Rating: ratingfull

This is just beyond wonderful. Though I've taken the quiz and am hovering on the boarderline with some of my OCs, this is massively helpful; with tips on what to avoid, it also provides reassurance that we will not always remain the same! We can improve and when learning there is not as much shame in writing an MS/GS as many of us have been led to believe. The reference to Canon Sue is also reassuring. I have seen so many fourteen year olds twist their canon character that way its painful (myself included, probably a bit beyond that age if I am honest). And even now I have dug myself out of that hole I still wasn't completely aware of all the pit-falls of the 'walking, angsting, violet-eyed cliche' who substitutes a real personality with a 'bad upbringing and a firey temper' I know I'm still learning and I might still fall in the occasional pothole, but this article has definitly knee-capped me and dragged me closer to better quality writing.

Comment #139 (Posted by FleursduPensee) Rating: ratingfull

While I am definitely no fan of Mary Sues and just as loathing of poor characterization as anything, I must say these "litmus tests" are just about as accurate as dipping soap in water to check its pH. Many of these questions are near impossible to avoid. A character now cannot be young, thus the maturation theme is null. A character can't have had a brutalized past, thus the overcoming obstacles theme is null. A character can't be of any nobility, thus the divine right theme is null. Fictional characters are now impossible because having any at all fictional ability, trait, heritage, etc is wrong. Epithets that have been around since the age of Vikings with Beowulf are now outlawed. So we cannot have Lord of the Rings because there's magic, we cannot have Star Wars because of youth and angst, we cannot have The Awakening because of female angst, we cannot have Memoirs of a Geisha because unusual physical traits, we cannot have Wuthering Heights because it is outrageous love affair and gothic nature, the list goes on forever. Poor characterization coupled with poor plot writing all topped with poor writing skills with the cherry of inexperience and lack of originality is what makes a "Mary Sue." Not a list of trivial aspects of a character that can be easily made legitimate depending on the depth and work the author puts into it.

Comment #140 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

I love it when people intentionally skip the repeated places where I've said "One trait alone, or a few traits together do not make a Mary Sue." It must make complaining so much easier. But, since we seem to have run into the problem yet again, let me state clearly and in small words: ONE TRAIT ALONE OR A FEW TOGETHER DO NOT MEAN A MARY SUE. Also, because despite the fact that people keep missing the word "fanfiction," I'll restate that too: THIS IS INTENDED FOR FANFICTION CHARACTERS, SPECIFICALLY IN ONE FANDOM. If you are running characters from original fiction or God help you real life through the test, you are doing it wrong. If you are running someone else's characters through the test, especially as a means of flaming or mocking them, you are doing it wrong. This is a writing tool. Like split infinitives, run-on sentences, sentence fragments, and second-person present tense POV, a Mary Sue is a writing technique that has its fans but also often drives readers away. It may be your style, it may be what's required for your story, but if you don't know what it is or how to identify if that's what you're doing you are likely to fall into the same pitfalls that are common to this writing style. Since I can't open your skull to peer inside and see how wrapped up you are in your character, the next best thing to identifying whether or not you're using this writing style is to make a list of characteristics common to the character type. The traits that were (when I wrote this thing) most frequently used to bad effect were scored higher, while the traits that were less likely to be used badly were scored lower. Some of them *gasp* are traits that real live people have, because (wait for it) writers often draw on the real world to make characters. (Who knew?) Some of them, heavens forbid, are characteristics that can be found in characters from original fiction, because we draw from a common cultural pool, works inspire other works, and also, given an infinite number of possible characters, writers are drawn to certain types. In the hands of a good writer, any or all of these could (and often do) make a fine character and a wonderful story, AS I SAID IN THE ESSAY ITSELF AND THROUGHOUT THE COMMENTS SECTION. (Reading is fundamental, kids.) The goal here is to say that if you are writing an OC in this particular fandom, here are some tropes that tend to get overused, and the more you have, the more likely you are to be writing this character type. If you want to do that, fine. I write run-on sentences and second-person POV, I split infinitives all the time, and sentence fragments are good for emphasis when used sparingly. I like OCs. Well-written original characters add to the fanon. Poorly-written OCs get the back button. (Idiots who use the test to flame other people's OCs get my foot up their backsides.) This is a tool. If you don't like the tool, don't use it.

Comment #141 (Posted by Wrath-Fangirl 202) Rating: ratingfull

I really liked this test, and a few years ago, it helped me realize my character was a Mary-Sue, but I just took it again for fun, with a different character, and she scored negative! Well, that might have been because she was a 75 year old woman missing her right arm, who works with the bad guys, has an alchohol addiction, and most of the charaters hate her. Now, that I think about it.. why did I even take this test? Oh well, thanks for the test anyway!

Comment #142 (Posted by bea p) Rating: ratingfull

i have to agree that it's horribly presumptuous to say any details taken from the writer's life automatically makes the character a mary sue.. that would suggest that the author is a mary sue. and what if s/he is not? take a character you believe to be great, having no knowledge of the author.. you add up his/her score and it comes up anti-sue.. now say you find out about the author and add up his score with the new found knowledge that many aspects of the character were based off of the writer but still s/he independent of the author (that is to say that the story cannot be claimed to be an auto-biography or even a semi-fictitious auto-biography.. the character is clearly someone separate from the author despite liking the same music.. blah blah blah). is the character automatically a shit character now? and wouldn't opening the story with the character just be an example of uncreative story-telling? i'm sayin: there's a good probability that the author would create a ms character, but i don't think one really affects the other.. they are simply probably indications of the same thing. thinking you and your character are practically infallible is quite possibly just an indication of conceit, so it's kinda of like saying "Do you stare in the mirror for more than 30 minutes any given da? [1]" there are an unfathomable number of douches out there. you wouldn't believe. idk the whole thing kind of reads to me like a jeff foxworthy routine. i didn't score as a mary sue on this or any other ms litmus, however i'm still not convinced my character isn't one =/ but it was a fun read nonetheless =] had some good points and helped in ways also. gjgj

Comment #143 (Posted by MM) Rating: ratingfull

I see your problem: "take a character you believe to be great, having no knowledge of the author.. you add up his/her score and it comes up anti-sue.. now say you find out about the author and add up his score" Why are you scoring this for someone else? This test isn't designed for you to assess other people's characters. It's supposed to be a self-test. The author knows how close the character is to her/his own personality. And it's not that having details like the author's life makes a Sue, it's that the more details that are, the less likely the author is to have the necessary distance from the character to write him/her fairly. That's why there are multiple questions about the character as related to the author. "Do you have anything at all in common with your character?" is a stupid question; of course you have things in common with your character. But if you have huge numbers of details in common, from having him/her named after you, to having crushes on the same people, to loving the same pop group, to looking exactly like you? You've inserted yourself into the story. And that's okay, you can do that, people do it all the time, but know that's what you're doing and this is what it's called.

Comment #144 (Posted by SillyPenguinGurl) Rating: ratingfull

Hey, numbers 2 (Felice), 71 (Death), 113 (Amanda Hamlin), 132 (o.o) and 139 (FleursduPensee); why are you being so critical? Are you mad because you took the test and your character(s) ended up being MSs? Quit being so whiny; this is a good quiz. I think that every aspiring author should use at least some variation of it. I tested my OC on it and she turned out just fine. (Then again, this test helped me edit out some of her MS-traits that she really didn't need anyway, so that was good too.) Thank you for writing this, Merlin Missy; it was very informative and fun to read.

Comment #145 (Posted by Mightypeon) Rating: ratingfull

I have to confess that I disagree on several points: -The gender question, while the same gender is propaply a criterion to reach unvoluntary self insertion, it is by no means an indicator. Also, self insertion can even work, provided the self inserting people are interesting enough (which usually means NOT beeing a Mary Sue) I also disagree about gaining points for beeing "in the first page" (what format are we talking about), I mean, Biff the Galactic Hero (Who is the Anti Sue personfied, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill,_the_Galactic_Hero) also features prominently in both the title and the first sentence.

Comment #146 (Posted by Mandy) Rating: ratingfull

Sadly, I'm very dissapointed in this test. 2 Sonic Mary Sues, 1 DP Gary Stu, 1 DP Mary Sue, and finally a self-insert Sue (basically me without any flaws,) have all passed the test. An important note to all character creators. IF your OC/FC got 0-14 points IMMEDIATELY remake that character. He/She is probably a very boring character or an Anti-Sue. (Nobody, ever mentions this "breed" of Mary Sue, but they honestly should.) What is an Anti-Sue? Well, an Anti-Sue is basically the opposite of a Mary Sue. She/He is whiny, bitchy, mean, selfish, annoying, has ADHD, is highly paranoid, is unable to walk, and is so ugly she could probably turn Medusa herself to stone. Yet, despite all this she/he has plenty of friends, and they treat her/him as if she/he is the most important thing in the world. You see, the Anti-Sue unlike Mary Sue has flaws, but has no good points that would make the character more realistic. Anyway, I strongly advise people to NOT use these tests. People who make these tests have a habit of putting things they HATE to see in characters, down as Mary Sue traits. Take it to someone who is good at seeing if your character is a Mary Sue or not. (Avoid friends when it comes to this.) Also, don't just think if you character passed this test he/she is completely fine. I've seen characters pass these tests, have evenly balanced personalities, and a good plot line. Yet, they STILL were Mary Sues. (You see when judging if a character is a Mary Sue or not. See how the other characters treat he/she, do they act OOC? Do they bend to her/his whim?) If you want GOOD and accurate info on Mary Sues. Go to TVtropes.com trust me. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue (And yes, there isn't just Mary Sue, there's Jerk Sue, Copy Cat Sue, Purity Sue, Parody Sue, and much much more.)

Comment #147 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

There are just way too many hitches in this test. I despise Mary Sues, but my idea of them is considerably different from what this test implies. Perfect people with no need for character development and with 99% of the characters liking them either at the start or by the end of the series is one of my ideas of a Mary Sue. The term "Mary Sue" seems to apply to just about every interesting character in a book. What's wrong with having a character "no longer overweight by the end of the series?" If the author added the necessary effort for the character to undergo this process, I don't see what's wrong with this type of development. I also don't think there's a problem with characters looking like teens or young adults. Sometimes people don't exactly want to read about old people who can idly sit by and do nothing--which is what this test appears to promote. As far as this test goes, it just appears as though the only way to avoid being a Mary Sue is by being a meek and shy outcast who can do nothing but observe the story from the outside while taking no action within. Characters like that have no appeal. The bit about writing about your character on the first page or on the first line of the book is a bit harsh, but the next question about the character speaking in his or her point of view is ridiculous. It's a style of writing (first person point of view!) and should be exempt from the test. There are just so many wrong aspects to this test, that it fails to consider how some of these "faults" in a potential Mary Sue may spice up a character or make them interesting. As long as the author doesn't overdress his or her character and make his or her character "better" than everyone, then they should consider this faulty test just a form of amusement. There are great classics out there in which readers DO enjoy the Mary Sue/Gary Stu influence--rated by this test, not by individual speculations--and would disagree wholeheartedly that the main character WAS a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I'm pretty sure Andrew (Ender) from Ender's Game would perish as a Gary Stu in this assessment test. Harry Potter, the Lovely Bones, and other "best sellers" would already be branded as Mary Sues/Gary Stues according to this test. Just write how you want to write, reread your story, if you get flustered at how corny your story is because of an oncoming Mary Sue/Gary Stu trait, edit it out. If you like that particular trait, keep it, but balance it out with an opposing factor. Just because your character has been raped or had some other traumatizing experience, doesn't mean another character couldn't undergo the same event. Make sure it's real. Your character must be admonished, punished, or scolded just as every other character in the book. Just write, aspiring authors, just write. :)

Comment #148 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

While this does identify many common traits of the Mary Sue, it fails to mention that the main factor is what she does to the STORY.

Comment #149 (Posted by whiteraven) Rating: ratingfull

It was an interesting test. The comments afterward were better, though. I think informing people on how to tell when a character is becoming too much of a Sue (since little Sues have their place) is more important. You can't rely solely on tests like this. I only do it for fun, not for any real value, especially since a lot of traits mentioned are either not an issue or they're only an issue if you use more than a third on one character. (Not to mention, a lot of the stylistic questions, such as "is your character introduced on the first page/sentence," hold no merit.) If you or others tell you that this character is a Sue (for whatever reason), go back, read with a critical eye, and make your own choice. Also remember that these traits on their own are not bad. They are valid qualities (some of them) that help flesh out your character. Just use some restraint. I heard one person say that these traits are like spices and seasonings. Added to your character, they make him wonderful. Add too much, no one can stomach him. Add too little, people will spit him out. You need traits. You don't need ALL of them. Happy writing! (If you use these tests seriously, take a bunch of them to see if they all come out the same. Don't rely on just one.)

Comment #150 (Posted by peskylilcritter) Rating: ratingfull

I have a penname and a nickname and a real name. My (only) OC has my penname but that's mostly because the story started as a silly "what if I went to Hogwarts" fic before it actually became interesting and then I couldn't think of anything better. I did give her a different middle name. She is unfortunate enough to have inherited her family problems along with my habit of avoiding them. She's introduced on the first page although mostly as the one of the other main characters' students. She has a lot of courage I don't, and I'll probably never have more than one friend, unlike her. She has an unusual ability (though she thinks of it as mixture of gift and curse) but its something other people can have too (she's even met one of those other people). She's my current pet-project and I absolutely refuse to stop writing her or stop posting the story. Besides, many of the characteristics that might make her a Mary Sue are plot devices. I write for fun and to work through my own real life issues. My main reader and greatest fan is my mother, because my grandmother would say magic is evil (never mind that the magic is used to help people), my sister doesn't read Harry Potter (especially not in English) and my father doesn't read much at all. The romantic aspect won't happen for about a decade after the beginning and the most of the story will be centered around the childhood and Hogwarts years of someone else entirely. My OC is probably a bit underdevloped personalitywise but I wouldn't call her a Mary Sue. Also, I've been told that every time she starts to act too much like adult (she's 17) she'll do something so typically teenager that she appears very realistic. I know from experience that most teenagers (though I can only speak for the female ones) tend to act all grown-up and mature in one moment and like a seven year old in the next. Well, I totally forgot the point I was trying to make so I'll stop rambling now. Annabeth

Comment #151 (Posted by Cindy) Rating: ratingfull

As I'm reading the comments, I find that most of the one-starred posts seem to be people who have Mary Sues. Although some questions need to be more clearer, a good test overall.

Comment #152 (Posted by Lily) Rating: ratingfull

Just curious: if one's character happens to share one's name, does that count as "naming a character after yourself"? (For an example of how this could happen, I often use random name generators to generate names, and you never know what's going to come up with them, so I do have a character that will potentially share my name.)

Comment #153 (Posted by Amanda) Rating: ratingfull

This is a very interesting article! A miracle; I managed to score a six! My character is, at the moment, ten years old, but she's growing as my fan fiction goes on. It's a Star Wars fan story, so she can wield the Force, but she has problems with it too. As soon as I started my story I was worried she would be perfect, but according to the test, I'm doing fine. My character doesn't have my name, or age. The biggest similarity is we are both girls.

Comment #154 (Posted by ManEaterPlush) Rating: ratingfull

When I first began writing, I became concerned that my characters were becoming too sue-ish. After taking this test, sure enough, they were pretty bad. That was a long time ago. Since then, I have grown as a writer and learned how to create good, well-balanced and actually likeable characters! For this, I thank you my friend :)

Comment #155 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

this makes it sound like everythings a mary sue

Comment #156 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

wait......if EVERYONE wants to make a non-mary sue character, isn't a mary sue character then original? my head hurts......

Comment #157 (Posted by HikariNoRyuu) Rating: ratingfull

As far as Mary Sue tests go, this one is pretty good. It's not as in-depth as some of the others I've seen, but it's a good base to go off of when it comes to characters that are still in the works. And I am happy to find that according to this test, my current OC is a non-Sue. :)

Comment #158 (Posted by Akida) Rating: ratingfull

I think this is pretty good... My character classified as a MS (had scored 71 points on this one and 137 on the new one) However, I don't consider her a MS because other main characters have the same or similar powers she has. For example, the quints (I used this test to test my favorite quint "Akida") can use all the same kenesis's...however, they each have their own ones they prefer to use etc. So, my character Akida, on her own, would be a sue. But compared to other characters and my story, she may (or may not) be considered a sue. Because she has _plenty_ of flaws (slight "insanity", enjoys causing pain and torchering people she doesnt like, short (and sometimes uncontrolable) temper just to name a few) So for me, the test is good but it isnt bad... Seems a bit biased because there wernt enough decutables as compared to the add ons (It doesnt have to be the same amount... But it should be enough to at least slightly even it out). Because on some of the questions, it seems like it is "perk perk perk" but, you add the points for the perk, but you don't see any questions about a consinquence to the perk or a drawback to it you know what I mean? So it seems uneven. For example... Can you character use psychc powers? (3 points) - you add the 3 points... but you dont see any question like "Does using these powers cause any discomfort/pain/etc. to the character? (subract 2/3 points) - see? It isnt nessessaryly even so IMO it seems biased. I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who have characters have gotten pretty high/bad scores (especially if they are writing fantasy) but if you were to add in more deductables their character would have been in the "normal" area. I think that this test is not horrible, but not excellent either.

Comment #159 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Thanks a lot - I thought all of my characters were Mary Sues but they all turned out to be ok... Gee, I worried for nothing O_O.

Comment #160 (Posted by Kimmeth) Rating: ratingfull

MM, I do pity you having to tell people over and over that this is just for Gargoyles FF when they complain about whacky scores. People, there are other tests out there for original characters and other fandoms. That said, I do use this test as 'the original and the best' to get a rough idea before seeking out tests specified for different fandoms/ original characters. There are a couple of points I disagree with but everyone has their own opinion of the finer shades of Sue. All in all a very good job, thank you for putting this up.

Comment #161 (Posted by UltimateXD) Rating: ratingfull

Most of stuff in this makes sense but the sections about disabilities (all types) must have exceptions, for example, "Flowers for Algernon"

Comment #162 (Posted by Elizabeth) Rating: ratingfull

Before the litmus test: Half-elf with unusual eyes that could play piano and violin very well, speak two languages fluently, etc... she was a 76 point girl. After the litmus test: She is a rich girl who can play some small instrument that nobody really uses, she is a half-elf (still), and her eyes are just plain old grey. She scored an 8. But I agree that this test is too narrowly defined. But hell, if it helps this much, then this is great! 76 -> 8 points! It's like a diet for writing! Sugar free!

Comment #163 (Posted by merriberry) Rating: ratingfull

HAH 9 POINTS I FEEL WIN

Comment #164 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

Im not sure if people can reply back but I've taken a test and my character is borderline-sue, what do i do to tone it down? On the other hand this was very helpful thank you!

Comment #165 (Posted by Molly) Rating: ratingfull

While yes, I think this is a very good test, some of it is a bit... narrowed? In your test, you have "Is the character's name in the title or is the title about them?", I think it is un-fair to give someone a point for that. I mean, after all the book IS about them, so why shouldn't the title relate to them? And it's not like 'you're making this character so lucky with all of the good stuff they get it', it's because thats the plot of the story. After all, your not going to write about the person who was nothing and is watching the person who has everything, your being the person who has everything. For example, if putting a character's name in the title/ making the title about them is Mary-Sue, then does that mean Joanne Rowling gets a Mary-Sue point for naming her series 'Harry Potter and the...' Do you see my point? There was just a few things like that were I found I was getting Mary-Sue points for the plot of the story, but other than that this was a very accurate test.

Comment #166 (Posted by Pluupy) Rating: ratingfull

Makes me wonder if the characters from the Fallout and ElderScroll games are Mary-Sues. Then again, it's up to the player to make them a Mary-Sue. Huh.

Comment #167 (Posted by Syasha) Rating: ratingfull

Thanks for taking the time to make this test! Very useful in weeding out Mary-Sue/Gary-Stus (my character scored a 9). However, I do have a query. What if the character does have unusual powers, but the story is set in a world where everyne has them? Wouldn't this mean that the character would be considered 'normal' in their world and not 'special'? And also, i think that you should add more deductibles for bad traits, so that a writer can balance out the good traits and the bad. Other than that, congratulations on creating a useful test! :D

Comment #168 (Posted by Jaslyn Gan ) Rating: ratingfull

Man I got 0 for this test? Is that bad? I'm writing about something like autism....

Comment #169 (Posted by D. Anti) Rating: ratingfull

What does a negative score mean? I scored a -2 on this one and -15 on the new one. My stories tend to be dark and focus on flaws rather than strengths.

Comment #170 (Posted by hickory dickory dock) Rating: ratingfull

I'm astounded by the comments mentioning their characters scored above even 40 points. I've never had a character rank above 20 on any sue litmus test. :S Could somebody explain to me how scores above 100 are even possible? D:

Comment #171 (Posted by raven) Rating: ratingfull

I don't know if you are or not, but are you saying my sister and I have Mary-Sue names? Mine is Raven, and my sister's is Hunter.

Comment #172 (Posted by Cassandra E. Greenback) Rating: ratingfull

Wow, a character from a (very old) story of mine scored an 86... obviously I quit writing that novel a while ago... Is it possible for a character with no emotions to be a Stu? According to the test, he's a borderline-Stu.

Comment #173 (Posted by Nikki) Rating: ratingfull

Thank you very much for this quiz! I just wrote my first novel and my lead character is a borderline Mary Sue, but your quiz helped me to figure out what I can fix about her. You also helped me learn what not to change. I actually thought that my character might be too boring because she doesn't have a tragic past and isn't really a hero who saves the day or excels at the anything, but now I know that she's more realistic that way. Thank you!

Comment #174 (Posted by 1caiser) Rating: ratingfull

Just awesome. I had a hunch everyone was getting a critique/review/etc. saying that their Self-Insert Characters were Mary-Sues or Gary-Stus. I took the test myself, (the non-Gargoyles one) and scored low. No, my character cannot be Gary-Stu. Even if a name that I liked is his. Who uses a name that the Author doesn't like? It is the only kind of Character Development that most Authors do, well, the most. I had a hard time with my Character. I've switched name after name after name after name. I could not find the perfect ring. Then, upon making the Star Wars version (of 3), I found the perfect name, and it has stuck with me ever since. And it has never been more simple. Kai. Is not a Gary-Stu. Gary-Stus are overpowered in any way possible. They should not even exist. Anyone that does, must be smitten by God or Chuck Norris.

Comment #175 (Posted by Yo!) Rating: ratingfull

I love this quiz! It is really good! But there are a few problems. I put myself in because I was bored, like my life was a story, and it came up with 94! Maybe I am insanely lucky or a real Mary-Sue in disguise, but it was weird.

Comment #176 (Posted by Debs xx) Rating: ratingfull

Just one thing about that first part. It's bull. MANY successful authors have used self insertion. Darren Shan, Dickens etc. Provided you do it RIGHT, there's nothing wrong with it. Also, some things that you mention that have to be for the full duration of the story, can be changed throughout the story with some hard work on the character's part and not be a MS trait. (Character development, people!)

Comment #177 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

I kind of like it when people write stories just to make fun of Mary Sues/Gary Stus. Like when they make the MS-est character they can and then show how the characters would REALLY react or something like that.

Comment #178 (Posted by Charlie) Rating: ratingfull

I agree with this test on one hand, but on the other hand it can be wildly inaccurate. (I dare someone to apply this test to the Doctor or to themselves.)

Comment #179 (Posted by an unknown user) Rating: ratingfull

This test is terrible. Having a super power makes a character a Mary Sue? If they are good at everything, and are the only one with super powers, THEN that's when they are a Mary Sue. Being the only one with wings and mutant DNA doesn't make sense, though. But that's different, it doesn't mean that they are the only one with special abilities. And self insertion doesn't make sense, either. The personality of the character resembling yourself is because that's the personality that you thought suited the character best. Contrary to that, though, I have made characters when I was little that were Mary Sues, and ALL of them acted NOTHING like me. And naming your charater after yourself? My nickname is Jenny, that's what my character is most commonly called, and she's no Mary Sue! I only gave her that nickname because it suited her physical appearance. Almost none of this test is a sign of being a Mary Sue.

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The (Original) Mary Sue Litmus Test

Merlin Missy

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