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- Livejournal Bans Underage Adult Fanfiction
Livejournal Bans Underage Adult Fanfiction
- By Melissa Wilson
- Published 07/19/2007
- Harry Potter
-
Rating:
Melissa Wilson
View all articles by Melissa Wilson
Six Apart has been firming up its policies on legal and illegal content, and this time mature-themed stories with underaged characters are in the spotlight. Livejournal personnel posted today that there is a "zero-tolerance policy" in effect for specific categories of posts and behaviors. Alongside material that "encourages or advocates hate crimes, rape, or child abuse or pedophilia," and " material that asks for assistance in committing illegal activities that cause serious physical/economic harm," certain types of fiction are also banned as (allegedly) illegal under U.S. law.
Specifically Livejournal has stated: "This includes threats of physical harm against the President or other executive officers, child pornography (photos or videos), or other material -- including drawings and text -- that explicitly depicts minors under the age of 18 (real or not) in a graphic sexual context. Or, in other words: Romeo and Juliet is okay. Teens talking about their experiences with sex is okay. Smut focused on a twelve year old is not okay."
The timing of this post is suspicious, as fandom is hovering at the edge of Pötterdämmerung and many fans affected by this decision are in fact avoiding all online interaction until the weekend due to leaked copies of "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" and associated spoilers being posted willy-nilly to various Livejournal communities, among other networking sites. This also affects Buffy fans, Teen Titans fans, "Narnia" fans, Trek fans, Firefly fans, and any number of other fandoms where at least one character is under 18 years of age and adult-rated material has been or could be written about them. Expect a quiet day tomorrow, and a hailstorm of wankery to follow.
The timing of this post is suspicious, as fandom is hovering at the edge of Pötterdämmerung and many fans affected by this decision are in fact avoiding all online interaction until the weekend due to leaked copies of "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows" and associated spoilers being posted willy-nilly to various Livejournal communities, among other networking sites. This also affects Buffy fans, Teen Titans fans, "Narnia" fans, Trek fans, Firefly fans, and any number of other fandoms where at least one character is under 18 years of age and adult-rated material has been or could be written about them. Expect a quiet day tomorrow, and a hailstorm of wankery to follow.
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Comments
Comment #1 (Posted by Leva Cygnet)
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Never thought *my* fanfiction would be bannable based on content, but by the definitions they've provided it is.
I so do not envy Livejournal's abuse department the fun job they're going to have deciding what's what now. Because, dude, we're dealing with fanfiction, much of which is based on fantasy worlds.
Is smut with a character who's over the age of 30 in real years and still a juvenile biologically still child porn? Or what about a story set in a historical context where the young male hero would have been legally an adult at fifteen and is married in canon?
Oye. What a mess.
Comment #2 (Posted by Journey)
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Leva Cygnet said:
<I>Is smut with a character who's over the age of 30 in real years and still a juvenile biologically still child porn? Or what about a story set in a historical context where the young male hero would have been legally an adult at fifteen and is married in canon?</i>
No to both. Neither one is child porn -- in fact, someone could write about an 8 year old and an old man having sex, and that is STILL not illegal because fiction cannot be considered child porn and is not illegal. For that matter, neither is art.
LiveJournal was claiming that these things ARE illegal under U.S. law, but too many users knew that they were lying. The recent case of Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition decided that, basically, it doesn't count as child porn if there are no real children involved.
Now LiveJournal is hiding behind vague "obscenity" claims, but they have yet to address exactly who will make up the "community" of "peers" that decides if something is "obscene" or not, among many, many other unanswered questions.
Comment #3 (Posted by an unknown user)
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something to consider though: why the hell would anyone want to write/read about an eight year old having sex with anyone? i'm sorry, call me old fashioned, but i think that borders on disturbing.
sure, everyone can say and do whatever they wish, and this does border on censorship, but i cannot help but wonder what else can you do as a responsible adult when there's absolutely no way to make sure that this type of fiction stays where it belongs: with the adults. how can you check that your 12-year old looking for harry potter fanfic (this being the most popular), won't stumble upon harry potter porn? you can put up all the warnings you want, unless you're THERE to make sure the child doesn't click the link, you risk the kid being exposed to things s/he shouldn't be exposed to. and THAT is simply wrong, not to mention illegal.
so yeah, i'm all for free speech, but basically i'd rather have a few ruffled feathers and pissed of smut writers than a traumatised child, or one exposed to this type of fiction. be that fanfiction, original fiction, or real porn.
Comment #4 (Posted by Perlandria)
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Thanks for talking about this. Some of the wankfest is over on the special news cage 6A made after that whole deletion debacle a few months back.
http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/241182.html
http://community.livejournal.com/lj_biz/241428.html
Comment #5 (Posted by Barbayat)
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They are not only banning smut in fiction, they stamp into personal space, and now those repressed anti-sex types labeling everyone who had an interest in sex before reaching 18 a pedo, a pervert and writer of child porn, just for expressing and dealing with totally normal growing up issues.
That is just plain sick - welcome to the medieval ages.
Comment #6 (Posted by it's about me)
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i read what they posted on livejournal and i don't see where the confusion is. if it's involves CHILDREN and porn is NOT okay people. Fiction or not, CHILDREN AND SEX do NOT belong together. It's okay to think disgusting thoughts in your head, it's NOT okay to write about it in their forum because that's the stance they are taking. Why are people continuing to pick at this scab when it's pretty clear cut. CHILDREN AND SEX do NOT belong together. PERIOD.
CHILDREN AND SEX DO NOT BELONG TOGETHER. I don't care if they have wings on. Or carry a bag of gold, they do NOT belong together.
Comment #7 (Posted by an unknown user)
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Yeah I'm with "it's about me" i don't see where the confusion is either. They have clearly said this is for the content that has been reported. So if it's in a locked journal that you share with your friends/community I DOUBT they will get reported.
People will do anything to make a mountain out of nothing. This has NOTHING to do with your right to fanfic. It's about the company making a decision to NOT allow any content with regards to CHILDREN and PORN. Period. I think what they're trying to avoid is identifying what IS allowed because then they're just opening themselves for those people to harbor in livejournal sort of finding a way to talk about children and porn (because they happen to look a bit older) or whatever the example is you want to use. Bottom line they do NOT support CHILDREN and PORN. period. I think they've done a good job of clarifying but some people just can't be happy if they're not bitching about something. And if you notice not that many people are interested in fanfic. So, while it sounds like "alot" of people are upset the reality is it's a niche. And may be a niche LJ isn't sad about losing. Because where are they going to go really?
Comment #8 (Posted by Scroll)
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To unknown user: I agree that protecting children is a high priority. My disagreement with 6A/LJ is the underhanded way they're conducting themselves. After the CEO promised only 2 months ago that they would *not* be banning fiction of any kind --promised right before a permanent sale account which many users opted for because they'd been reassured that 6A's new policies would *not* affect them -- 6A does a complete about-face and now claims that maybe, possibly some of our fiction is "illegal".
Never mind the fact that their grasp of U.S. law is worse than mine, and I'm not even American. FICTION is not illegal. Fiction about 8-year-olds having sex is not illegal. Fiction does not meet the Miller Test for obscenity since even the most badly written story is still a *story*, and therefore meets the artistic/literary requirement.
6A is completely misrepresenting the law to their customers, causing panic and resentment. I can't decide if they really are that ignorant, or if they're purposefully clouding the issue with "obscenity" threats to force writers/artists to hide or delete their works.
If 6A wants us to delete our stories, they should just SAY SO. They're a private company and have the right to deny us service. But the onus is on them to be honest, instead of shifting the blame to U.S. laws that don't even apply!
Either that, or they REALLY need to hire a lawyer.
Comment #9 (Posted by Melissa)
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The problem fans are having is that many of the stories that technically fall under the banned categories include stories about teenagers. There is a difference between writing a story about a fifty year old man with an eight year old girl and a story about two consenting seventeen year olds experiencing their first time. One of my earlier fandoms was Star Trek: Voyager, in which my fvorite character was two years old but physically an adult. Under this guideline, I could not post an explicit story about her and the character she was canonically sleeping with. Fanfic is not child pornography and is not illegal under the law. Six Apart has the right to allow or disallow any content they wish on their site, but hiding behind laws that don't exist is pretty low.
Comment #10 (Posted by elfwreck)
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Some of us--who were sexually active before we were 18--would like some clarification about which of our experiences are no longer permitted to be discussed at LiveJournal.
Others would like to discuss literary works like "Lolita" or movies like "Fast Times At Ridgemont High" without being accused of promoting child molestation.
It's not like "porn" has some exact, legal definition that we can stick to and just "not write that." It's not about 8-year-olds having sex... it also includes 16-year-olds having sex with other 16-year-olds.
And if LJ wants all discussion of sex involving minors to be removed, they just need to say so, and put a statement to that effect in their official TOS... not claim that they'd be enforcing some law if they remove journals that describe people under 18 years of age having sex.
Comment #11 (Posted by Penemuel)
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One also has to think about the fact that even in the US (where the servers are based) the age of consent varies wildly and some states teens UNDER 18 are considered adults. In addition, in HP fandom at least, the fictional characters in their fictional world have an age of majority set at 17! Yes, it's great to protect children, but no children are being harmed by fanfiction. It isn't REAL.
Comment #12 (Posted by colonel simons)
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yes indeed they need to just say that instead of trying to use a law that doesnt exist,and another thing LJ can be held liable under international law for misrepresenting another countries powers or laws and by falsly stating laws that do not exist the united states of america has no such law that censors people from writing speaking or listening to stories no matter how obscene it maybe,and the united states of america shall never put a law like that into effect becuase it breaches the 1st amendment freedom of speech,and it shall not censor freedom of expression nor shall it censor freedom of press.
as a military officer in the usmc,i can take this to the us supreme court and have a6 and lj held liable for misuse and abuse of another sovergin nations powers and laws in which certain laws or powers do not exist.
Comment #13 (Posted by circus)
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I had a story reported to LJ Abuse after the announcement came out. It is NC-17 and features an adult having non-con sexual relations with a sixteen year old. LJ abuse said my story was fine and did not meet their guidelines as a violation of the TOS.
Comment #14 (Posted by Lexy)
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All this will do is make people leave livejournal and look for another online journal. After the whole 'witch hunt scenario' back in May I'm not really surprised that Six Appart is trying to do such a thing. Bah...
Comment #15 (Posted by Dobby)
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Seems 6A/LJ waited until the next Potter con to drop another bomb...
they are back to permanently suspending accounts.
See their latest news post for details.
Comment #16 (Posted by Scarred Sword Heart)
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So Rurouni Kenshin might be affected if they portrayed Kenshin and Kaoru being together or Kenshin and Tomoe since one character is under 18 in each of those relationships. That's utterly ridiculous.
Comment #17 (Posted by pfeifferpack)
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Um.... Romeo and Juliet were under 18 BTW. Yes, I have an LJ permanent account. Yes, I am in fandom (not the one currently under seige). Yes I am concerned especially by the attitude of SA/LJ. No, I am not a "nerdy teen", I'm old enough to be grandmother of one though and remember when customers were respected as were rights.
Comment #18 (Posted by ali)
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well, i don't write fandom, i don't care that much about harry potter and I am pissed off enough at LJ to leave LJ for another company. as someone previously said, they have the right to deny service to those who write or draw content that they disprove of. BUT they do not have the right to cancel paid lifetime and yearly accounts without notice. if there is a journal in question, the client should be notified and communicated with. if he or she would like to keep the journal, they will have to comply, or get their money back. hiding behind laws and taking people's money just isn't right. based on LJ's lack of respect for freedom of speech and unprofessionalism, I am highly considering a move to another site.
Comment #19 (Posted by otakugal15)
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Well, I just have to say that, I DO read Snape/Hermione fics, Remus/Hermione fics, and so forth. But I DO NOT read anything where she is under the age of 17. And in the Harry Potter universe, SHE'S OF LEGAL AGE. There are other fandoms where I support a teacher/student relationship. But in real life, I DO NOT promote it. And not one of the authors who write these fics promote it either.
One more thing (to a comment above): If parents want to protect their kids from reading this stuff, make their computers KID SAFE. It all boils down to the parents. My parents explained things to me that were wrong and I agree with everything they told me. They also gave me the choice to view things and if I found them uncomfortable , I didn't read or view them. When I felt ready to read sex fics or view sex pics, I did so. It's all about whether someone is mature enough to handle it. And many teenagers are mature enough, despite what many people think. But that doesn't mean that I promote child-porn. It doesn't mean I'm a pedo. I see nothing wrong with reading a story about two 17 year-olds having sex (Draco/Hermione) and I see nothing wrong with a story about Snape/Hermione or Remus/Hermione having sex later, ESPECIALLY since she is OF AGE in that universe. *sigh* I just want all of this to be over with so I can post stuff without the fear of being banned because of "artistic merit" and/or "literary merit."
Comment #20 (Posted by an unknown user)
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Odd that the article mentions 'romeo and juliet is okay'.... because in the actual play, juliet is thirteen.
Comment #21 (Posted by Leva Cygnet)
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#20 -- one of the problems that we've had is that Livejournal has been very inconsistent. One specific example I saw, on the flocked community Innocence_Jihad (meaning, I can't directly link to it) involved a user posting quite graphic images of classic art involving Cupid and Diana that were both incestuous and as graphic as anything that has been banned from LJ. Rachel, Livejournal's spokesman, indicated she didn't see anything wrong with this because "Cupid isn't a kid" essentially. The IMAGE was of a child-like character. And then they turn around and warn anime artists where the author states the characters are over the age of 18 because they "look like kids." And, in the first example, Cupid was drawn in a very realistic style and looked eight or nine years old. And the anime art that got the author a warning was quite abstractly drawn ...
Comment #22 (Posted by an unknown user)
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The only thing I "get" from all of this is: "Religions have promised to destroy the world" so why worry?
Comment #23 (Posted by Myriam D)
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I feel the need to kick something in the face. *headdesk* Way late to the party, and very thankful to not have a foot in the LJ door. Bloody little...